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Can Dual Wield be made to work??

Jar_Ek
Jar_Ek
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Currently Dual Wield seems to be far an away the least useful melee weapon set, it lacks both utility and damage compared to 2H (and obviously is not a tank skill line). So can it be made to work... by that I mean fixed, and how? Well, here is my attempt at a set of suggested changes...

Please be aware that this was written last year before Orsinium and so is slightly out of date. Most points still stand, but the idea of stacking bleeds is probably no longer viable due to maelstrom weapons and the CP star that boosts DoTs (it would be OP).
Dual Wield
Dual wield is designed primarily for fast and deadly attacks, and hence deal mostly with bleeding DoTs, criticals and debuffs.

Note: Bleed DoTs need to work against all types of opponent (change them to poison if bleed is an immersion issue), and to work against damage shields (i.e. bleed the damage shield). In addition, if a bleed has been successfully applied it should not be mitigated by block or shields (it would have to be purged or healed).

Twin slashes
Current: Two hits for medium damage. Adds a bleed DoT that does not affect shields, work through block or work against all opponents (many are immune to bleeds).
Suggestion: Increase base damage slightly. Make DoT work on shields and against all opponents. Allow the DoT to stack up to 3 times.
Reason: Increases base damage and makes the DoT work against the vast majority of opponents, rather than the current version which does not work against a significant proportion of opponents.
Blood Craze
Current: Adds a self-heal based on the DoT applied
Suggestion: Apply an initial heal on hit (relatively small compared to rally, but better than the current DoT component, maybe worth 3 ticks?) and then apply the DoT based self-heal. As the DoT will now work on shields and against all opponents, so will the heal component.
Reason: Provides slightly better healing without it being overpowered.
Rending Slashes
Current: Increases the DoT duration
Suggestion: Do not increase the DoT duration. Instead provide a buff depending on the weapons used:
Axe: Berserk (damage)
Sword: Brutality (weapon damage)
Mace: Brutality (weapon damage)
Dagger: Force (critical damage)
The buff is minor for a single weapon of a given type and major for both weapons (including mace and sword combination). The buff is for a short duration (i.e. 4 or 5s at rank IV so you can cover a flurry)
Reason: Provides a damage buff for a short period that suits the flavour of each weapon type.

Flurry
Current: Six hit uninterruptible channel, with bonus damage on last hit
Suggestion: Increase base damage slightly and/or decrease channel time.
Reason: Currently the channel time is too high at around 3s – and the damage is too low for that time period. As this does not have a built in cc (like uppercut) the damage needs to be better than uppercut, noticeably.
Rapid Strikes
Current: Increased damage per strike
Suggestion: Increased damage per strike and apply a stacking bleed DoT (separate from Twin Strikes) for 5s (max 3 stacks).
Reason: Although the increased damage per strike is nice, the skill needs something additional to make it comparable in effectiveness to Uppercut (2H). The bleed, synergised with Ruffian, should help to do this.
Blinding Fury
Current: Each attack has a small chance to disorient opponent per hit
Suggestion: Make the disorient chance stacking, such that the more strikes that hit, the higher the disorient chance – with the last strike being 100% if it has not yet occurred. Prevent the damage from Flurry breaking the disorient (if it can do so)
Reason: To bring it into line with 2H, the skill needs to actually perform the CC rather than potentially perform it.

Whirlwind
Current: PBAoE strike. Damage increased against low health opponents
Suggestion: No change
Whirling Blades
Current: Restore stamina per opponent hit
Suggestion: Slight increase to the stamina restoration
Reason: The amount of stamina restored is insufficient to make this a good choice over Steel Thunder, esp. with the new max resource stacking meta.
Steel Thunder
Current: Increased radius
Suggestion: No change

Blade Cloak
Current: Reduce AoE damage by 20%. Cause damage to foes in melee range
Suggestion: Change the skill to “Parry and Riposte”. This provides a minor dodge chance, minor protection and minor resolve buffs for 20s – this is the Parry. When this ability ends(or you cast it again) you gain the Empower buff (increased damage on next attack) – this is the Riposte.
Reason: This provides a utility skill which gives set of minor buffs that synergise with the major buffs that all classes get (i.e. major Resolve) and that are available as armour skills. It also provides additional utility for DPS on demand.
Morph 1
Current: Throw a blade for high damage on second press
Suggestion: Change skill to “Lightning Reflexes”. When attacked in melee you automatically strike back with causing damage to the attacker (essentially the same damage and effect as Blade cloak – although the damage should be scaled slightly upwards). This could be considered as a bleed in order to trigger Ruffian, but probably does not need to be.
Reason: Provides a reason to keep parry up with some continuous damage (i.e. a self-centred DoT).
Morph 2
Current: Provides expedition buff for X seconds
Suggestion: Change skill to “Flashing Blades”. Skill provides an expedition buff as previously (but with all the baseline changes).
Reason: This allows the melee fighter to stay in melee combat more easily, especially when combined with a snare.

Hidden Blade
Current: Ranged attack that interrupts and snares (for x seconds)
Suggestion: Change the name to “Leaping Strike” and change from a ranged attack to a gap closer. Keep the damage and the secondary effects. The graphical element could be the same one as used when an NPC jumps over you.
Reason: The rest of the line is melee based, and hence a gap closer synergises better than a ranged attack – regardless of the snare on the ranged attack.
Shrouded Daggers
Current: Hits multiple targets in frontal arc
Suggestion: Change the name to “Death from Above”, apply the base ability changes and remove the AoE frontal arc attack. Instead provide a minor Mangle and Fracture debuff (5s).
Reason: The skill line already has a powerful AoE ability and hence this is somewhat redundant – whereas applying a set of debuffs would synergise better with a deadly melee fighter.
Flying blade
Current: Increased range
Suggestion: Increased range (+ changes to the base ability as above)
Reason: An increased range gap closer would be useful

Passives
Only fairly minor changes here to be honest – mostly linked to Ruffian such that it synergises better.

Slaughter
Current: Increases damage against low health foes
Suggestion: No change
Dual Wield Expert
Current: Increases off-hand damage
Suggestion: Increase the amount of damage caused by DW skills, light and heavy attacks through increased offhand damage. Also increase off hand enchant proc rate to match main weapon at 2pts.
Controlled Fury
Current: Reduces cost of dual wield skills
Suggestion: No change
Ruffian
Current: Deal extra damage against disabled opponents
Suggestion: Ensure disabled covers all CC (snare, root, stun, disorient) and also apply to bleeding foes.
Reason: Internally synergises with a greater proportion of the tree’s skills.
Twin Blunt and Blade
Current: Axe causes DoT; Swords causes extra damage; Maces reduce target armour; Daggers increase critical chance
Suggestion: Increase the DoT chance for axes and make all opponents affected by bleed DoTs.

Anyway this is my attempt. Have a read, critique. Enjoy.
Edited by Jar_Ek on 12 February 2016 19:34
  • Cody
    Cody
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    I agree with all of this, especially the bleed going thru blocks part.

    I also heavily agree with the gap closer.
    the only thing i dont FULLY agree with, is blade cloak. I think it should just be turned into a stamina based damage shield, but your idea is good too.
  • Jar_Ek
    Jar_Ek
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    @Cody Glad you like it. Let's hope zos do to.
  • ArRashid
    ArRashid
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    Yeah pretty much.

    Blade Cloak is infinitely inferior to Lightning Form (be it defense or offense, not to mention Boundless Storm's epic speed buff).

    DoTs in this game are largely slow and weak (dunno if they can at least stack now, they were instead refreshing last year if you hit it before the first one ran out) and so they are generally useless (unless they apply other effects which are the main point of applying them) on anything but bosses since normal mobs fall in 2-3 seconds, often before the second tick..

    No charge makes dual wield feel sluggish..

    Lack of solid damage skills makes even shield do more damage until really high levels, since Puncture or Low Slash deal more instant damage all the way till you'd get Hidden Blade (which still deals just like less than 5% more damage than Low Slash) at last.

    Lack of weapon CC or (depedable!) heal makes you depend heavily on class skills that VERY often cost and scale with magicka instead.

    Cross Block looks way tougher than blocking with 2handed weapon, yet has no bonus compared to it (is weaker if anything)
  • kylerjalen
    kylerjalen
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    I actually like Dual Wield as it works well with my Nightblade build. The Reapers Mark + Teleport Strike + Crippling Grasp + Rapid Strikes combo with my dual daggers makes life oh so easy on targets.
    That said, I love your suggestions to make the whole line better. I hope ZOS listens.
  • Arcanasx
    Arcanasx
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    I generally like the changes, especially the blade cloak and hidden blade changes. In fact, I've always thought from time to time if I could change those abilities it would be something like you said. Changing the ranged attack to a gap closer to a melee skill line makes much more sense, and blade cloak is simply inferior to many other abilities that you can choose from. Dual wield really needs a type of parry and riposte ability badly...realistically that was dual wielding's greatest strength. And if you're trying to throw a blade in the middle of combat, dual wielding is the most unpractical fighting style to do that with. Like really, how are you going to effectively throw a blade with a weapon in each hand?
  • Jar_Ek
    Jar_Ek
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    Updated the op for readability and clarity somewhat. Also if you like the ideas, then please post and/or agree so we can up the profile of this. If you disagree... post your concerns please.
  • glak
    glak
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    In the meantime, use 2H to boost the DPS of DW adequately and get a charge out of it.
  • KenaPKK
    KenaPKK
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    I definitely second this. It needs to be seen. ZoS needs to accept that they half-assed several skill lines and start fixing them.
    Kena
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  • mwd419_ESO
    mwd419_ESO
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    This would be amazing. I'd love to use dual wield for more than AOE.
  • Emma_Overload
    Emma_Overload
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    ZOS needs to fix Flurry so that all hits are capable of proccing Surge heals. This is supposedly a big issue on the PTS.
    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • Dyride
    Dyride
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    ZOS needs to fix Flurry so that all hits are capable of proccing Surge heals. This is supposedly a big issue on the PTS.

    Or you could use Rune Prison and have a long duration disorient that isn't broken by Rapid Strikes cause it is a DoT.

    Then just rely on heals from critting Steel Tornado and Flying Blade.

    I like the Bleed changes but don't think DW needs a gap closer or increased CC in the skill line.

    DW has the largest AOE, excellent single target when using Evil Hunter+Rapid Strikes, and a high damage long range attack that does more damage to low health or CCed opponents.

    I like the buff Flying Blade gets in 1.7 and also they mentioned changing which targets are affected by Bleeds.
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    1. Daymond
      Daymond
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      Very good ideas. Dual wield needs some changes to be put on the same lvl of the other two melee weapon trees 2h and 1h shield.
    2. jkolb2030
      jkolb2030
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      Free bump over the other thread about this.

      100% on board with all these changes as a DW user.
    3. GreenGhostMan
      GreenGhostMan
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      Agree with just about everything you said.
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    4. Forestd16b14_ESO
      Forestd16b14_ESO
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      Um you do know players use dual wield for magicka builds right? Yea ZOS logic.
    5. Gilvoth
      Gilvoth
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      Jar_Ek wrote: »

      Dual Wield
      Dual wield is designed primarily for fast and deadly attacks, and hence deal mostly with bleeding DoTs, criticals and debuffs.

      Note: Bleed DoTs need to work against all types of opponent (change them to poison if bleed is an immersion issue), and to work against damage shields (i.e. bleed the damage shield). In addition, if a bleed has been successfully applied it should not be mitigated by block or shields (it would have to be purged or healed).

      Twin slashes
      Current: Two hits for medium damage. Adds a bleed DoT that does not affect shields, work through block or work against all opponents (many are immune to bleeds).
      Suggestion: Increase base damage slightly. Make DoT work on shields and against all opponents. Allow the DoT to stack up to 3 times.
      Reason: Increases base damage and makes the DoT work against the vast majority of opponents, rather than the current version which does not work against a significant proportion of opponents.
      Blood Craze
      Current: Adds a self-heal based on the DoT applied
      Suggestion: Apply an initial heal on hit (relatively small compared to rally, but better than the current DoT component, maybe worth 3 ticks?) and then apply the DoT based self-heal. As the DoT will now work on shields and against all opponents, so will the heal component.
      Reason: Provides slightly better healing without it being overpowered.
      Rending Slashes
      Current: Increases the DoT duration
      Suggestion: Do not increase the DoT duration. Instead provide a buff depending on the weapons used:
      Axe: Berserk (damage)
      Sword: Brutality (weapon damage)
      Mace: Brutality (weapon damage)
      Dagger: Force (critical damage)
      The buff is minor for a single weapon of a given type and major for both weapons (including mace and sword combination). The buff is for a short duration (i.e. 4 or 5s at rank IV so you can cover a flurry)
      Reason: Provides a damage buff for a short period that suits the flavour of each weapon type.

      Flurry
      Current: Six hit uninterruptible channel, with bonus damage on last hit
      Suggestion: Increase base damage slightly and/or decrease channel time.
      Reason: Currently the channel time is too high at around 3s – and the damage is too low for that time period. As this does not have a built in cc (like uppercut) the damage needs to be better than uppercut, noticeably.
      Rapid Strikes
      Current: Increased damage per strike
      Suggestion: Increased damage per strike and apply a stacking bleed DoT (separate from Twin Strikes) for 5s (max 3 stacks).
      Reason: Although the increased damage per strike is nice, the skill needs something additional to make it comparable in effectiveness to Uppercut (2H). The bleed, synergised with Ruffian, should help to do this.
      Blinding Fury
      Current: Each attack has a small chance to disorient opponent per hit
      Suggestion: Make the disorient chance stacking, such that the more strikes that hit, the higher the disorient chance – with the last strike being 100% if it has not yet occurred. Prevent the damage from Flurry breaking the disorient (if it can do so)
      Reason: To bring it into line with 2H, the skill needs to actually perform the CC rather than potentially perform it.

      Whirlwind
      Current: PBAoE strike. Damage increased against low health opponents
      Suggestion: No change
      Whirling Blades
      Current: Restore stamina per opponent hit
      Suggestion: Slight increase to the stamina restoration
      Reason: The amount of stamina restored is insufficient to make this a good choice over Steel Thunder, esp. with the new max resource stacking meta.
      Steel Thunder
      Current: Increased radius
      Suggestion: No change

      Blade Cloak
      Current: Reduce AoE damage by 20%. Cause damage to foes in melee range
      Suggestion: Change the skill to “Parry and Riposte”. This provides a minor dodge chance, minor protection and minor resolve buffs for 20s – this is the Parry. When this ability ends(or you cast it again) you gain the Empower buff (increased damage on next attack) – this is the Riposte.
      Reason: This provides a utility skill which gives set of minor buffs that synergise with the major buffs that all classes get (i.e. major Resolve) and that are available as armour skills. It also provides additional utility for DPS on demand.
      Morph 1
      Current: Throw a blade for high damage on second press
      Suggestion: Change skill to “Lightning Reflexes”. When attacked in melee you automatically strike back with causing damage to the attacker (essentially the same damage and effect as Blade cloak – although the damage should be scaled slightly upwards). This could be considered as a bleed in order to trigger Ruffian, but probably does not need to be.
      Reason: Provides a reason to keep parry up with some continuous damage (i.e. a self-centred DoT).
      Morph 2
      Current: Provides expedition buff for X seconds
      Suggestion: Change skill to “Flashing Blades”. Skill provides an expedition buff as previously (but with all the baseline changes).
      Reason: This allows the melee fighter to stay in melee combat more easily, especially when combined with a snare.

      Hidden Blade
      Current: Ranged attack that interrupts and snares (for x seconds)
      Suggestion: Change the name to “Leaping Strike” and change from a ranged attack to a gap closer. Keep the damage and the secondary effects. The graphical element could be the same one as used when an NPC jumps over you.
      Reason: The rest of the line is melee based, and hence a gap closer synergises better than a ranged attack – regardless of the snare on the ranged attack.
      Shrouded Daggers
      Current: Hits multiple targets in frontal arc
      Suggestion: Change the name to “Death from Above”, apply the base ability changes and remove the AoE frontal arc attack. Instead provide a minor Mangle and Fracture debuff (5s).
      Reason: The skill line already has a powerful AoE ability and hence this is somewhat redundant – whereas applying a set of debuffs would synergise better with a deadly melee fighter.
      Flying blade
      Current: Increased range
      Suggestion: Increased range (+ changes to the base ability as above)
      Reason: An increased range gap closer would be useful

      Passives
      Only fairly minor changes here to be honest – mostly linked to Ruffian such that it synergises better.

      Slaughter
      Current: Increases damage against low health foes
      Suggestion: No change
      Dual Wield Expert
      Current: Increases off-hand damage
      Suggestion: Increase the amount of damage caused by DW skills, light and heavy attacks through increased offhand damage. Also increase off hand enchant proc rate to match main weapon at 2pts.
      Controlled Fury
      Current: Reduces cost of dual wield skills
      Suggestion: No change
      Ruffian
      Current: Deal extra damage against disabled opponents
      Suggestion: Ensure disabled covers all CC (snare, root, stun, disorient) and also apply to bleeding foes.
      Reason: Internally synergises with a greater proportion of the tree’s skills.
      Twin Blunt and Blade
      Current: Axe causes DoT; Swords causes extra damage; Maces reduce target armour; Daggers increase critical chance
      Suggestion: Increase the DoT chance for axes and make all opponents affected by bleed DoTs.



      totaly awesome suggestions! i would love to see these implimented.
      Edited by Gilvoth on 11 February 2016 23:51
    6. Daymond
      Daymond
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      I do not think its bad for magicka builds use it. Just want it to add to peoples builds more than that one passive magic builds use it for and steel tornado for stam builds .
    7. Ilterendi
      Ilterendi
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      I love these suggestions, unfortunately I am of the belief that the people that need to see/understand my look past this. DW has been in trouble since beta. It was noted, at least by me, numerous times each testing phase. The responses were always, "we're looking into it" and then silence. So while I hope (pray) these suggestions could make it to live servers, I doubt the dev team will take it seriously.
    8. ku5h
      ku5h
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      Agree with you OP, DW needs a buff, and you gave some good ideas. If we complain enough maybe ZoS will do some changes. Ofc they will scrap all good ideas, and put in a new armor set that increases DW dmg, and that will be that. That is how ZoS roll.
    9. Vangy
      Vangy
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      In pvp, DW is just for spin2win and accessing an extra set/jacking up wp&sp & flying blade. Flurry is just too slow.


      However in pve, especially with the New changes planned for the cp system, DW imo is going to be very potent even without maelstrom weapons.

      Bleed damage is going to work on all kinds of mobs and cp tree gets a mighty and a dot damage increase. So things like rending slashes is going to hit like a truck. If u have maelstrom weapons it's going to be even better. With the new changes to dk, I can drop 2h and go DW/bow and keep up rending, rearming trap, poison injection with caltrops and skoria for some sick dot damage build. Plus flurry is also a dot! Very promising for pve. Stamina however got shafted in pvp. The only good thing about stamina was good burst at the trade off of utility but that's going to change next patch :(
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    10. Vangy
      Vangy
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      In pvp, DW is just for spin2win and accessing an extra set/jacking up wp&sp & flying blade. Flurry is just too slow.


      However in pve, especially with the New changes planned for the cp system, DW imo is going to be very potent even without maelstrom weapons.

      Bleed damage is going to work on all kinds of mobs and cp tree gets a mighty and a dot damage increase. So things like rending slashes is going to hit like a truck. If u have maelstrom weapons it's going to be even better. With the new changes to dk, I can drop 2h and go DW/bow and keep up rending, rearming trap, poison injection with caltrops and skoria for some sick dot damage build. Plus flurry is also a dot! Very promising for pve. Stamina however got shafted in pvp. The only good thing about stamina was good burst at the trade off of utility but that's going to change next patch :(
      (2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
      (2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
      (2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
      (1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
      CP: 610 and counting

      PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz
    11. Turelus
      Turelus
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      I would also like to see the damage bonus from the two weapons only apply to the weapon skills.

      I can't say I am a fan of the age of "hold two swords but never use their skills" because of the benefits it grants to class abilities. This is basically akin to the time Restoration Staves would give you bonus damage just for holding them and that ended up being removed.

      Otherwise I agree with a lot of what's being said here.
      @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
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    12. Enimis
      Enimis
      Agree, DW is underpowered for physical damage.
    13. Enimis
      Enimis
      delete
      Edited by Enimis on 12 February 2016 15:15
    14. Jar_Ek
      Jar_Ek
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      @Vangy good points wrt to the cp changes. The OP was originally written a while ago (before the upcomming TG build was put on PTS) and so is a little out of date.

      Specifically stacking bleeds with the cp changes might be problematic.
    15. Oreyn_Bearclaw
      Oreyn_Bearclaw
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      Ha! The one place that you write "no change" is under steel tornado and that is exactly what is getting nerfed in next patch. I agree that DW could use some buffs. Rapid strikes definitely needs to be shorter and or hit harder if it is to be viable. Other than a DK using maelstrom weapons, I am not sure of any build that currently uses it.

      You keep talking about stacking DoTs up to 3 times. Are you suggesting I could cast the dot 3 times in a row and they would all tick? Not sure I can get on board with that. It would be fundamental change to how DoTs work in this game, and it seems easy to exploit. Could you imagine DKs stacking all their DOTs 3 times? They would pull ridiculous numbers.
    16. Jar_Ek
      Jar_Ek
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      @Oreyn_Bearclaw Well the OP was written well before Orsinium even so it's a bit out of date now (no maelstrom weapons for a start). Originally the idea was for bleeds to stack 3 times because the initial damage is poor and you only have 5 skills per bar. However with the new cp star for DoTs and maelstrom weapons stacking DoTs would be a bad plan!
    17. Didgerion
      Didgerion
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      “Death from Above” lol that should the the new name for meteor ultimate
    18. Didgerion
      Didgerion
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      I like the current mechanics of dual wild skills, I would agree to keep them as they are and just increase a bit damage of the channeled abilities to be on pair with other skills...and bleeds need to be significantly higher providing not all targets bleed...

      I would change only hidden blade skill....i would let one morph to be ranged and one morph to be melee - something similar to surprise attack ability.

      Stamina builds need more options for instant melee damage skills.
    19. ryanborror
      ryanborror
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      While I agree that some of the lesser taken morphs could be changed I think the skill line is fine as it is and has its place if used correctly. Rapid strikes is underused because other classes have spamable stamina abilities (jabs, surprise attack). If we make rapid strikes more powerful it will outshine these skills and everyone will use it. It's fine as it is (just looks stupid). Stam dks are the only ones who really use it and they're pulling highest Stam dps. Flying blade is very overlooked. It also has the potential to take the place of rapid strikes or wrecking blow just no one uses it. Steel tornado is obviously overpowered and rending slashes can tick for 5 or 6k if geared properly. Blade cloak could use some buffs I think. I only use quick cloak on my magic Templar to get around. Other than that it's quite useless.
      dooderrr
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