Don't put a 6 man target cap on AOE for pvp

RamzaBehoulve · April 2014

Even if the lack of AoE cap was not intended, it turned out to be one of the best features of ESO PvP.

You seriously need to reconsider that decision and rework the skills on an individual basis if you feel they are too strong.

Malufus · April 2014

this is a horrible change....whether we believe it was always intended or not....

the poll in the AvA section clearly demonstrates this with over 1300 votes cast so far and 13 to 1 votes for no caps

as i said in that post....i hated GW2 and i will not pay a monthly fee to play a game that seems intent on being its clone

Diamond_10 · April 2014

Im VERY VERY surprised if they go ahead with this.
ESO Staff go ask Matt Firor how daoc would have turned out with aoe caps.

Worst idea ever if you cap aoe, and will doom this game before it even starts.

Disappearingone · April 2014

I only tested 2 skills on live. (and that wasn't easy) Both skills only hit 6 targets.

This is Cleave

Cleave

This is Solar Barrage...The Debuff wore off before I could back everyone hit into view.

Solar Barrage

It was rough testing this. The casters and the archers would spread out, either before I tried to hit them or after. that made it hard to determine which were out of range, unaffected or unaffected and then moved out of range. Then I had to try to get everything affected to be inframe long enough to get a SS.

I tried to pan out the camera farther but vines and wall clipping into the picture made that unviable.

I also always had 6 of the lizard-dog things in every pull. Where I was setting in Bonesnap there were two groups of three of those things. So, in every pull I had at least 10 targets. I also should note that in the Screenshots posted the Dog things are sometimes hard to see because they are behind me or hidden behind a more prominent mob.

My small sample tells me that Jessica is telling the truth; A few Skills are bugged and OP and now will be fixed, and that made people look at all the AoE skills. That made people think there was this huge nerf happening when there wasn't.

valkaneer2b14_ESO · April 2014

Disappearingone wrote: »

I only tested 2 skills on live. (and that wasn't easy) Both skills only hit 6 targets.

This is Cleave.....

It was rough testing this. The casters and the archers would spread out, either before I tried to hit them or after. that made it hard to determine which were out of range, unaffected or unaffected and then moved out of range. Then I had to try to get everything affected to be inframe long enough to get a SS.

I tried to pan out the camera farther but vines and wall clipping into the picture made that unviable.

I also always had 6 of the lizard-dog things in every pull. Where I was setting in Bonesnap there were two groups of three of those things. So, in every pull I had at least 10 targets. I also should note that in the Screenshots posted the Dog things are sometimes hard to see because they are behind me or hidden behind a more prominent mob.

My small sample tells me that Jessica is telling the truth; A few Skills are bugged and OP and now will be fixed, and that made people look at all the AoE skills. That made people think there was this huge nerf happening when there wasn't.

Ok so does this mean AoE is already capped on Live and we can start to expect to see the Zergs take over immediately?

Xsorus · April 2014

Most AOE isn't capped
Very few actual AOE is capped
cleave is capped cause its secondary effect, the damage shields and ultimate gain.

Disappearingone · April 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Most AOE isn't capped
Very few actual AOE is capped
cleave is capped cause its secondary effect, the damage shields and ultimate gain.

Most AoEs have a secondary effect. The two that I use most are capped, And I'll bet if people care to test they will find the same is true for most.

Disappearingone · April 2014

valkaneer2b14_ESO wrote: »

Ok so does this mean AoE is already capped on Live and we can start to expect to see the Zergs take over immediately?

If a few can fend off the Zerg now then I dont see why they can't after 1.1.

I'd like to add another observation that I made: When I would use the capped skill a second time It would usually pick a different target.

$Infraction$ · April 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear.

Still feels like Guild Wars 2 all over again.

Samadhi · April 2014

This change has me so confused.

I've played other games where PvP is primarily 6v6 - 15v15; yet AoEs were uncapped or capped in excess of 20-30 targets.

Cyrodiil is made up of primarily large groups, group size caps out at 24, yet AoEs will be capped around 6 targets?
=/

I don't have a single AoE in my build as a Nightblade, and even as such I do not see reason for an AoE cap.

Soban · April 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear.

The problem is that the few edge cases include nearly every ground targeted aoe in the game. It's a huge change... a bad one.

moXrox · April 2014

Agriope wrote: »

Being as I've already cancelled my subscription over AoE cap news and all other players in our PvP guild are doing the same... you might wanna rethink this nonsensical AoE cap change.

Here's the short and long of it:

Guild Wars 2 is free.
Guild Wars 2 has an AoE cap.
ESO is not free.
ESO does not (currently) have an AoE cap.
If GW2 and ESO have an AoE cap = Goodbye ESO. I'll choose the free version of bad decision making, thanks.

GW2 ? Good luck with this game.

Aweful boring quests and just a mindless mass pvp where lemming run behind a "leader".

Xsorus · April 2014

Disappearingone wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Most AOE isn't capped
Very few actual AOE is capped
cleave is capped cause its secondary effect, the damage shields and ultimate gain.

Most AoEs have a secondary effect. The two that I use most are capped, And I'll bet if people care to test they will find the same is true for most.

Most AOE's don't have secondary effects like the Cleave Morph, For instance, Carve Morph gives 3 ultimate for each enemy hit, that means If i hit 10 people, I instantly get 30 Ultimate...That is why that ability is capped at 6... the Damage Shield one is even more absurd without a cap on it..imagine a group of 30 people clumped up... if I ran up there and hit them all with Brawler, you'd never remove the damage shield from me...

Now look at something like Steel Tornado from Duel Wield line, it doesn't have an effect where near that.. and its not capped..

moXrox · April 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear.

What is not ok in pvp is currently this....

3-4 players can kill 25+ enemies in 3 seconds just with pressing a button and doing 1700dps with AoE.

This is ridicolous and not acceptable, there is no tactic and no skill in it.

http://www.twitch.tv/prydatv/c/4079857

LatinLegacy · April 2014

I can understand where people are coming from with there complaints but I for one welcome the change. As long as the change does not impact trebs & ballistas, then the PvP will become much better. Sieges should be the counter for zergs, not players. To be honest, the only people complaining are most likely those players that ran into large groups of opposing players mindlessly spamming AoE's. Pretty much a majority of Dragonknight & Sorcerer players. This change will implement a higher level of skill & if you know how to play your class well, this change will not impact you in any way whatsoever.

prana33b14_ESO · April 2014

moXrox wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear.

What is not ok in pvp is currently this....

3-4 players can kill 25+ enemies in 3 seconds just with pressing a button and doing 1700dps with AoE.

This is ridicolous and not acceptable, there is no tactic and no skill in it.

http://www.twitch.tv/prydatv/c/4079857

hahahahaha. Bads gonna bad. No one in that zerg of unorganized players used their magelight, just ran into teh keep? They deserve to get killed. All of them. Step your game up.

Mephane · April 2014

LatinLegacy wrote: »

To be honest, the only people complaining are most likely those players that ran into large groups of opposing players mindlessly spamming AoE's. Pretty much a majority of Dragonknight & Sorcerer players.

Strawman. A lot of people care about the overall quality of PvP, not just their favourite build's performance. I don't even have a DK or Sorc character yet I am opposed to this change.

LatinLegacy wrote: »

This change will implement a higher level of skill & if you know how to play your class well, this change will not impact you in any way whatsoever.

The change will implement nothing but a higher level of zerging, and thus less skill required to succeed.

Disappearingone · April 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Most AoEs have a secondary effect. The two that I use most are capped, And I'll bet if people care to test they will find the same is true for most.

Most AOE's don't have secondary effects like the Cleave Morph, For instance, Carve Morph gives 3 ultimate for each enemy hit, that means If i hit 10 people, I instantly get 30 Ultimate...That is why that ability is capped at 6... the Damage Shield one is even more absurd without a cap on it..imagine a group of 30 people clumped up... if I ran up there and hit them all with Brawler, you'd never remove the damage shield from me...

Now look at something like Steel Tornado from Duel Wield line, it doesn't have an effect where near that.. and its not capped..

Are you sure or are you making the assumption? (Proof Pls) Further, even if your right and its not capped, who says it will be?

All that is said is that a most already have a cap and a few don't and not meant to and that there is a few that were meant be capped and are bugged. The bugged ones will be fixed...

moXrox · April 2014

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

moXrox wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear.

What is not ok in pvp is currently this....

3-4 players can kill 25+ enemies in 3 seconds just with pressing a button and doing 1700dps with AoE.

This is ridicolous and not acceptable, there is no tactic and no skill in it.

http://www.twitch.tv/prydatv/c/4079857

hahahahaha. Bads gonna bad. No one in that zerg of unorganized players used their magelight, just ran into teh keep? They deserve to get killed. All of them. Step your game up.

Iam not sure who is the bad one, those who just stand around in castles like everyone does in every faction occasionally or those who just play superman and think they are cool without the need of any skill.

The dps is the point and not a missing mage light.

galiumb16_ESO · April 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always
had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear.

In my opinion this is a lie, or just being subjectively vague in your wording.

Always having a cap of some sort is entirely different than all abilities now having a 6 person cap. How is that 'simply fixing the handful that did not'? I cancelled my sub today.

I can handle the poor release and the long and frequent maintenance down times. I can handle that I spent 5 hours stuck in a hole because you removed the /stuck feature from PvP. I can accept some balance issues. I can accept that because of a pre-release templar nerf I drink 100 potions a day. What I cannot except is yet another game destroyed by allowing idiots to stack up into giant balls.

prana33b14_ESO · April 2014

moXrox wrote: »

Iam not sure who is the bad one, those who just stand around in castles like everyone does in every faction occasionally or those who just play superman and think they are cool without the need of any skill.

lolz. I dunno, I'd probly check for stealth groups before entering keep. Don't cry because an unorganized group of pugs got blown up. It says nothing of skill or tactics. They deserve to die if they are that dumb.

If you think a group of mindless pug idiots mashing buttons in a zerg doesn't deserve to get taken advantage by small groups who are organized and smarter you are part of the problem.

Xsorus · April 2014

Disappearingone wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Most AoEs have a secondary effect. The two that I use most are capped, And I'll bet if people care to test they will find the same is true for most.

Most AOE's don't have secondary effects like the Cleave Morph, For instance, Carve Morph gives 3 ultimate for each enemy hit, that means If i hit 10 people, I instantly get 30 Ultimate...That is why that ability is capped at 6... the Damage Shield one is even more absurd without a cap on it..imagine a group of 30 people clumped up... if I ran up there and hit them all with Brawler, you'd never remove the damage shield from me...

Now look at something like Steel Tornado from Duel Wield line, it doesn't have an effect where near that.. and its not capped..

Are you sure or are you making the assumption? (Proof Pls) Further, even if your right and its not capped, who says it will be?

All that is said is that a most already have a cap and a few don't and not meant to and that there is a few that were meant be capped and are bugged. The bugged ones will be fixed...

Who says it will be? the people on PTS who've tested it, ALL AOE including Heals now has a 6 person cap

Xsorus · April 2014

moXrox wrote: »

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

moXrox wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear.

What is not ok in pvp is currently this....

3-4 players can kill 25+ enemies in 3 seconds just with pressing a button and doing 1700dps with AoE.

This is ridicolous and not acceptable, there is no tactic and no skill in it.

http://www.twitch.tv/prydatv/c/4079857

hahahahaha. Bads gonna bad. No one in that zerg of unorganized players used their magelight, just ran into teh keep? They deserve to get killed. All of them. Step your game up.

Iam not sure who is the bad one, those who just stand around in castles like everyone does in every faction occasionally or those who just play superman and think they are cool without the need of any skill.

The dps is the point and not a missing mage light.

That was done in another game for 12 years straight with zero trouble...Do you know what the solution was? Not standing on a point in a big ball thinking you're safe. You don't need 30 people standing on a point to capture a keep....If you're doing it and die, its your own damn fault.

moXrox · April 2014

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

moXrox wrote: »

Iam not sure who is the bad one, those who just stand around in castles like everyone does in every faction occasionally or those who just play superman and think they are cool without the need of any skill.

lolz. I dunno, I'd probly check for stealth groups before entering keep. Don't cry because an unorganized group of pugs got blown up. It says nothing of skill or tactics. They deserve to die if they are that dumb.

If you think a group of mindless pug idiots mashing buttons in a zerg doesn't deserve to get taken advantage by small groups who are organized and smarter you are part of the problem.

I never thought that in such an interesting mass pvp the tactics & strategies of some players are so simple minded.

In other words, I dont know any strategy just give me Superman and I mow all down.

At the end the ego is important to have a cheap n lazy rambo solution for players who cant coordinate in groups.

You dont need even a guild or group for the action shown in the video and if you dont invest into coordination and group tactics I dont think just 2-3 ppl should not be the "kings of the battlefield". There needs to be more to deserve this.

Xsorus · April 2014

moXrox wrote: »

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

moXrox wrote: »

Iam not sure who is the bad one, those who just stand around in castles like everyone does in every faction occasionally or those who just play superman and think they are cool without the need of any skill.

lolz. I dunno, I'd probly check for stealth groups before entering keep. Don't cry because an unorganized group of pugs got blown up. It says nothing of skill or tactics. They deserve to die if they are that dumb.

If you think a group of mindless pug idiots mashing buttons in a zerg doesn't deserve to get taken advantage by small groups who are organized and smarter you are part of the problem.

I never thought that in such an interesting mass pvp the tactics & strategies of some players are so simple minded.

In other words, I dont know any strategy just give me Superman and I mow all down.

Is it really superman if you decide to herp a derp on a point with 30 of your herp a derp friends thinking you're safe because herp a derp logic tells you that you could never possibly be aoed down?

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · April 2014

We're working on pulling together a list of the impacted abilities. We'll likely have it tomorrow or Monday. That said, this only impacts a handful of area-of-effect abilities that did not already have a cap. Almost every area-of-effect ability in ESO already has a cap on the live server. This is not a sweeping change to all area-of-effect abilities.

savak · April 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on pulling together a list of the impacted abilities. We'll likely have it tomorrow or Monday. That said, this only impacts a handful of area-of-effect abilities that did not already have a cap. Almost every area-of-effect ability in ESO already has a cap on the live server. This is not a sweeping change to all area-of-effect abilities.

Thanks for the clarification. Hopefully people can stop freaking out.

Xsorus · April 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on pulling together a list of the impacted abilities. We'll likely have it tomorrow or Monday. That said, this only impacts a handful of area-of-effect abilities that did not already have a cap. Almost every area-of-effect ability in ESO already has a cap on the live server. This is not a sweeping change to all area-of-effect abilities.

What part of No AoE cap is foreign to ZoS?

Ashigaru · April 2014

This is a perfect example of why the PTS should be open to everyone that is a paying customer. From watching the streams last night they sure were not worried about testing any changes they were more worried about getting into the trials and trying to beat them.

RivenEsq · April 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on pulling together a list of the impacted abilities. We'll likely have it tomorrow or Monday. That said, this only impacts a handful of area-of-effect abilities that did not already have a cap. Almost every area-of-effect ability in ESO already has a cap on the live server. This is not a sweeping change to all area-of-effect abilities.

Can you explain how these abilities all have AoE caps? Wall of Elements, for example, should not have an AoE cap. And, since suddenly every single ability is capped at 6 now where there was previously no cap on all these abilities, I don't believe your statement. What is the rationale behind an enemy standing in a red circle unharmed? Does that not seem illogical? How are smaller groups supposed to contend against larger groups? This cap, which is NEW, takes away that ability for small groups to outplay anyone. I implore you to look at Guild Wars 2 and see how an AoE cap in that title really took away the value of PvP skill.