@ZOS - two questions on Nirnhorned and Vigor

Erock25 · April 2015

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

I would appreciate if this thread didn't turn into a flame war. I will bump it for a few days if it falls off the page but really all I'm looking for is a bit of confirmation on these two questions if a dev is available to give a response.

Oughash · April 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Really want to know the answer to this as well. I can hit 45k spell resist in heavy w/ 2 pieces of nirn armor (DK + Breton bonuses).

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

I would appreciate if this thread didn't turn into a flame war. I will bump it for a few days if it falls off the page but really all I'm looking for is a bit of confirmation on these two questions if a dev is available to give a response.

Sort of a corollary: the alliance war skill which absorbs projectiles is really bad. Y'all should probably consider a re-design.

Ezareth · April 2015

I had a guy complaining to me that his Crystal Fragment only hit me for 2000 damage yesteday and I'm still only using 2 pieces of nirnhoned in 5 pieces of light armor. This bug needs fixed ASAP or ZoS needs to say it is working as intended so I can stop wasting my time casting spells and switch to full Siege Damage spec.

RinaldoGandolphi · April 2015

Honestly, I am beginning to think Nirnhoned is working as intended because it is doing exactly what the tooltip states it should which is increase spell resistance by x %.

Do understand Im not sure this is good or bad as my thoughts have changed somewhat after looking into it, however considering how long it takes to research all the Nirnhoned traits and the time it takes to find the Nirncrux to make them, how much should they nerf it if they do?

Right now its giving 50% Spell Resist. I can see both sides of the argument to nerf and not nerf.

Destro Staff users can get around Nirnhoned.

Elemental Drain/Susceptibility costs zero magic to cast and reduces Spell Resist by 5120 points and drain returns magic by attacking with fire, frost, and shock.

Destro Staff Attacks and Skills flat out ignore 10% of your enemies base Spell Resist,

With a Sharpened Weapon and 5 light armor you can hit around 16k penetration.

Spell Erosion works it just don't show up on the Character sheet because i tested it. I done more damage with 5 points in Spell Erosion then I did without so it does work.

So 16k Spell Pen + 5120 + 10% of 45k(4500) = 25,620 Spell Penetration(This is not counting the points in Spell Erision that don't show up on character sheet). So 19,380 Spell Resist left - Spell Erosion investment, it can be countered, you will just need a Destruction Staff to do so...using Sword and Board means you give up damage and better penetration for better defense, I think this is how it should be in trade offs.

My primary reason for switch to a stamina build is because its something i have wanted to try for a long time, the Nirnhoned thing just kinda gave me the push i needed.I have been wanting to change from the standard caster playstyle for quite sometime.

However, a Destro Staff Sorc can counter this with enough CP in Spell Erosion and the correct gear, and use of Element Weakness that is free to cast. In essence Destro staff users can cut Nirnhoned's effect by a little over 50%(50 % of 45k is 22,500, and we can get 25,620 Spell pen with Destro Staff) The more points invested in Spell Erosion, the weaker a Destro Staff user makes Nirhoned become.

After really looking into this a bit, Im on the fence....i can see both sides of the argument as to nerf it or not nerf it...im just not sure...as ways to counter it do exist. I see Sword and Board Sorcs having the most trouble with this because they lack the penetration bonuses and Element Weakness to give them the extra omph! to punch through.

This is going to be a tough call becauase nerfing Nirnhoned will make a trait that takes a lot of effort to get and research useless. I don't even have any nirn gear, but i cna see both sides. Wow this is a really tough call.

Erock25 · April 2015

Just pinging the allstars again in case I can catch them before the workday ends .... @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · April 2015

Hey @Erock25 - At very least, we want you to know we've got eyes on this thread and are looking into getting some answers to your questions.

TheBull · April 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

I had a guy complaining to me that his Crystal Fragment only hit me for 2000 damage yesteday and I'm still only using 2 pieces of nirnhoned in 5 pieces of light armor. This bug needs fixed ASAP or ZoS needs to say it is working as intended so I can stop wasting my time casting spells and switch to full Siege Damage spec.

woodsro wrote: »

Honestly, I am beginning to think Nirnhoned is working as intended because it is doing exactly what the tooltip states it should which is increase spell resistance by x %.

Do understand Im not sure this is good or bad as my thoughts have changed somewhat after looking into it, however considering how long it takes to research all the Nirnhoned traits and the time it takes to find the Nirncrux to make them, how much should they nerf it if they do?

Right now its giving 50% Spell Resist. I can see both sides of the argument to nerf and not nerf.

Destro Staff users can get around Nirnhoned.

Elemental Drain/Susceptibility costs zero magic to cast and reduces Spell Resist by 5120 points and drain returns magic by attacking with fire, frost, and shock.

Destro Staff Attacks and Skills flat out ignore 10% of your enemies base Spell Resist,

With a Sharpened Weapon and 5 light armor you can hit around 16k penetration.

Spell Erosion works it just don't show up on the Character sheet because i tested it. I done more damage with 5 points in Spell Erosion then I did without so it does work.

So 16k Spell Pen + 5120 + 10% of 45k(4500) = 25,620 Spell Penetration(This is not counting the points in Spell Erision that don't show up on character sheet). So 19,380 Spell Resist left - Spell Erosion investment, it can be countered, you will just need a Destruction Staff to do so...using Sword and Board means you give up damage and better penetration for better defense, I think this is how it should be in trade offs.

My primary reason for switch to a stamina build is because its something i have wanted to try for a long time, the Nirnhoned thing just kinda gave me the push i needed.I have been wanting to change from the standard caster playstyle for quite sometime.

However, a Destro Staff Sorc can counter this with enough CP in Spell Erosion and the correct gear, and use of Element Weakness that is free to cast. In essence Destro staff users can cut Nirnhoned's effect by a little over 50%(50 % of 45k is 22,500, and we can get 25,620 Spell pen with Destro Staff) The more points invested in Spell Erosion, the weaker a Destro Staff user makes Nirhoned become.

After really looking into this a bit, Im on the fence....i can see both sides of the argument as to nerf it or not nerf it...im just not sure...as ways to counter it do exist. I see Sword and Board Sorcs having the most trouble with this because they lack the penetration bonuses and Element Weakness to give them the extra omph! to punch through.

This is going to be a tough call becauase nerfing Nirnhoned will make a trait that takes a lot of effort to get and research useless. I don't even have any nirn gear, but i cna see both sides. Wow this is a really tough call.

Geez good thing there is Nirnhorn

edit- Plus Champion points!

pppontus · April 2015

The problem is, in addition to nirn you have plenty of other ways to reduce damage even further with CP for magic, elemental damage and so on. It's absolutely ridiculous currently, I mean all magic damage is already pretty bad from Champion a system alone as you get straight up % damage reductions for it that is impossible to get for physical. Add nirn and my molten whip ends up hitting people in light armor for 800 damage.

800..

At that point it stops being funny. Sure, I don't have much penetration but how am I better of doing light attacks with my 1h sword in spell power gear than using magicka skills?

Meanwhile I still take 10-12K snipes in full heavy armor.

Nope, I would simply be stupid to not play stamina at the moment. Old meta killed, new meta even stronger than old meta ever was, GJ.

Ezareth · April 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey @Erock25 - At very least, we want you to know we've got eyes on this thread and are looking into getting some answers to your questions.

Finally someone peeked into the PvP Forums.

woodsro wrote: »

Honestly, I am beginning to think Nirnhoned is working as intended because it is doing exactly what the tooltip states it should which is increase spell resistance by x %.

Do understand Im not sure this is good or bad as my thoughts have changed somewhat after looking into it, however considering how long it takes to research all the Nirnhoned traits and the time it takes to find the Nirncrux to make them, how much should they nerf it if they do?

Right now its giving 50% Spell Resist. I can see both sides of the argument to nerf and not nerf.

Destro Staff users can get around Nirnhoned.

Elemental Drain/Susceptibility costs zero magic to cast and reduces Spell Resist by 5120 points and drain returns magic by attacking with fire, frost, and shock.

Destro Staff Attacks and Skills flat out ignore 10% of your enemies base Spell Resist,

With a Sharpened Weapon and 5 light armor you can hit around 16k penetration.

Spell Erosion works it just don't show up on the Character sheet because i tested it. I done more damage with 5 points in Spell Erosion then I did without so it does work.

So 16k Spell Pen + 5120 + 10% of 45k(4500) = 25,620 Spell Penetration(This is not counting the points in Spell Erision that don't show up on character sheet). So 19,380 Spell Resist left - Spell Erosion investment, it can be countered, you will just need a Destruction Staff to do so...using Sword and Board means you give up damage and better penetration for better defense, I think this is how it should be in trade offs.

My primary reason for switch to a stamina build is because its something i have wanted to try for a long time, the Nirnhoned thing just kinda gave me the push i needed.I have been wanting to change from the standard caster playstyle for quite sometime.

However, a Destro Staff Sorc can counter this with enough CP in Spell Erosion and the correct gear, and use of Element Weakness that is free to cast. In essence Destro staff users can cut Nirnhoned's effect by a little over 50%(50 % of 45k is 22,500, and we can get 25,620 Spell pen with Destro Staff) The more points invested in Spell Erosion, the weaker a Destro Staff user makes Nirhoned become.

After really looking into this a bit, Im on the fence....i can see both sides of the argument as to nerf it or not nerf it...im just not sure...as ways to counter it do exist. I see Sword and Board Sorcs having the most trouble with this because they lack the penetration bonuses and Element Weakness to give them the extra omph! to punch through.

This is going to be a tough call becauase nerfing Nirnhoned will make a trait that takes a lot of effort to get and research useless. I don't even have any nirn gear, but i cna see both sides. Wow this is a really tough call.

This isn't how Spell Penetration works at all....and even if it were having to use both a Destro Staff and elemental Drain (The cost is irrelevant, the skill slot is not) on your bar to counter "50%" of a freaking Armor traits effect is not an acceptable solution.

Since ZoS is actually looking at this...I guess I'll have to provide some more research and hard facts instead of the guess work we have now.

Attorneyatlawl · April 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey @Erock25 - At very least, we want you to know we've got eyes on this thread and are looking into getting some answers to your questions.

Finally someone peeked into the PvP Forums.

woodsro wrote: »

Honestly, I am beginning to think Nirnhoned is working as intended because it is doing exactly what the tooltip states it should which is increase spell resistance by x %.

Do understand Im not sure this is good or bad as my thoughts have changed somewhat after looking into it, however considering how long it takes to research all the Nirnhoned traits and the time it takes to find the Nirncrux to make them, how much should they nerf it if they do?

Right now its giving 50% Spell Resist. I can see both sides of the argument to nerf and not nerf.

Destro Staff users can get around Nirnhoned.

Elemental Drain/Susceptibility costs zero magic to cast and reduces Spell Resist by 5120 points and drain returns magic by attacking with fire, frost, and shock.

Destro Staff Attacks and Skills flat out ignore 10% of your enemies base Spell Resist,

With a Sharpened Weapon and 5 light armor you can hit around 16k penetration.

Spell Erosion works it just don't show up on the Character sheet because i tested it. I done more damage with 5 points in Spell Erosion then I did without so it does work.

So 16k Spell Pen + 5120 + 10% of 45k(4500) = 25,620 Spell Penetration(This is not counting the points in Spell Erision that don't show up on character sheet). So 19,380 Spell Resist left - Spell Erosion investment, it can be countered, you will just need a Destruction Staff to do so...using Sword and Board means you give up damage and better penetration for better defense, I think this is how it should be in trade offs.

My primary reason for switch to a stamina build is because its something i have wanted to try for a long time, the Nirnhoned thing just kinda gave me the push i needed.I have been wanting to change from the standard caster playstyle for quite sometime.

However, a Destro Staff Sorc can counter this with enough CP in Spell Erosion and the correct gear, and use of Element Weakness that is free to cast. In essence Destro staff users can cut Nirnhoned's effect by a little over 50%(50 % of 45k is 22,500, and we can get 25,620 Spell pen with Destro Staff) The more points invested in Spell Erosion, the weaker a Destro Staff user makes Nirhoned become.

After really looking into this a bit, Im on the fence....i can see both sides of the argument as to nerf it or not nerf it...im just not sure...as ways to counter it do exist. I see Sword and Board Sorcs having the most trouble with this because they lack the penetration bonuses and Element Weakness to give them the extra omph! to punch through.

This is going to be a tough call becauase nerfing Nirnhoned will make a trait that takes a lot of effort to get and research useless. I don't even have any nirn gear, but i cna see both sides. Wow this is a really tough call.

This isn't how Spell Penetration works at all....and even if it were having to use both a Destro Staff and elemental Drain (The cost is irrelevant, the skill slot is not) on your bar to counter "50%" of a freaking Armor traits effect is not an acceptable solution.

Since ZoS is actually looking at this...I guess I'll have to provide some more research and hard facts instead of the guess work we have now.

Well, from my past testing that is basically how it works, other than weakness to elements and its morphs which add the equivalent of that resist reduction even if a target has lower than its debuff claim for example . I'll probably make a new post in the vein of this one soon: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/131271/definitive-spell-resist-penetration-sharpened-trait-results-thread-bugs-stam-imbalance-and-why

If it works as it has in the past, I don't see any problem with how nirnhoned works (it's been a percentage just as it is now, of your total spell resist, since its introduction in v1.4 which brought the Nirnhoned trait into ESO). There are a large number of ways to counter it, and you have to sacrifice a good bit to get to a resist level that makes a real difference in your mitigation, typically a bunch of heavy armor with nirnhoned and a defending trait weapon plus slotting immovable or another resist/armor buff. That means leaving a lot of damage on the table for the protection, and a counter build will be less defensive to get penetration to negate this. That's balance.

I'll make a deeper writeup when I perform & post my testing, but right off the top of my head I can think of a few easy and effective ways to hit high mitigation targets hard (which my sorc is built for in both cyrodiil and trials now). Destro staves have 10% off the top, champ points provide some, nirnhoned on my staves does 18% which is close from recent testing I've done on that, light armor provides a 5000 spell pen, critical hit chance amplifies your hits (and if someone stacks nirnhoned some that is less critical damage reduction from impenetrable pieces they can equip), elemental drain provides the equivalent boost of light armor's passive regardless of a target's resist level and is a great sustain tool outright for casters, the Mundus stone for spell pen gives around 13% worth on high resist raid enemies in Sanctum Ophidia so presumably would work similarly in Cyrodiil Pvp,,and more that I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.

My dragonknight is built for high mitigation, but sacrifices a good deal of damage to do so... and it is very readily obvious when I run into a properly planned out glass cannon from an enemy faction, from the much higher damage taken vs squishy enemy casters who didn't plan their builds out much

. Same thing goes for my high damage sorc where I hit enemy "tanks" that just threw on a shield and thought they were tanks

. I hit them like a truck still, but when I run into a real enemy tank, the damage gets noticeably lower, but still fairly strong.

If testing bears out that the mechanics are working properly, I agree with @woodsro on this.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · April 2015

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

Ley · April 2015

Nice some good news.

Xsorus · April 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

Figures...make a set of armor today and the nerf it a week later heh

Attorneyatlawl · April 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

Figures...make a set of armor today and the nerf it a week later heh

I just made some new staves a few days myself

. Still not as bad as the 1.4 update where all of my premade top-tier v10-12 legendary glyphs I was selling became V7-9 overnight and thus basically worthless.... that was about 40 kuta down the drain plus a bunch of kura and kude

. Same materials that were used to make the new v14 version to boot. I can't complain much about balance changes like nirnhoned for example but that kind of thing was a liiiiitttle rough

.

Weberda · April 2015

Vigor at Alliance rank 5. Congrats ZOS. You're turning PvP into a real joke. Kids complain because they have to earn something and you just cave in like marshmallows. Between this and the keeps bonuses outside of Cyrodiil you may as well just give everybody all the goodies and make everybody V14 so they don't have to work for that either and shut down PvP. That will take care of some of the lag anyway. And those of us who pay for a challenge in a game can go elsewhere.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · April 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Figures...make a set of armor today and the nerf it a week later heh

Sorry to hear that.

For what it's worth the next major update won't be until after console launch in June.

timidobserver · April 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

It is so so so frustrating. Again stuff is getting nerfed over PvP. So, in order to make it balanced for pvp, it will probably be made useless for PvE. On top of that, you are probably going to break it again in the process since that seems to happen every time nirnhoned or sharpened is touched. Sharpened and Nirnhoned have worked properly at the same time for probably 2-3 total weeks over the last 3 months.

I like just about everything about ESO. I am cool with the Champion System, the Crown Store, even the Console launch. This constant trashing of gear and skills over PvP is my one and only issue. Somebody is mad because they died, so my gear has to be remade.

Attorneyatlawl · April 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Figures...make a set of armor today and the nerf it a week later heh

Sorry to hear that. For what it's worth the next major update won't be until after console launch in June.

Nice, will get to enjoy it a few then

. Any plans to add say less important skills higher in the lines to give goals for alts/etc.? I liked that vigor was one but it is a pretty important skill to have earlier on admittedly.

Xsorus · April 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Figures...make a set of armor today and the nerf it a week later heh

Sorry to hear that. For what it's worth the next major update won't be until after console launch in June.

Oh well nm then, I'll enjoy it for a few months then heh

monkeymystic · April 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Figures...make a set of armor today and the nerf it a week later heh

Sorry to hear that. For what it's worth the next major update won't be until after console launch in June.

Are you going to fix the massive champion point imbalance between physical damage (stam builds) and magic damage (magic builds) in PvP atm?
There are currently tons of ways through CP to reduce magical dmg (fire, frost, shock, dots), while there are none for physical damage. So magicka players hit like rabbits while stam users hit like trucks in the end..PvP is getting a joke because of this, and magicka users become more and more useless as people get more CP.
DoTs hits like a weak joke since 2 defense starsigns (fire, frost, magicka etc + DoT defense) affect it. It needs a hotfix.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Xsorus · April 2015

He dots get screwed the most

Magic/Fire resist will reduce things like the Nightblade/DK dots
Followed by Spell Resist/Armor for those...

then you have the CP reduction as well...

Erock25 · April 2015

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Thank you! Very good info to know for gear planning.

Weberda wrote: »

Vigor at Alliance rank 5. Congrats ZOS. You're turning PvP into a real joke. Kids complain because they have to earn something and you just cave in like marshmallows. Between this and the keeps bonuses outside of Cyrodiil you may as well just give everybody all the goodies and make everybody V14 so they don't have to work for that either and shut down PvP. That will take care of some of the lag anyway. And those of us who pay for a challenge in a game can go elsewhere.

I am not a kid. That is the problem, actually. I understand wanting something to strive for and look forward to in PVP, but Vigor was undeniably too long of a grind for such a powerful skill when you consider a lot of people like to have alts and that Vigor really adds a ton of viability. As I said in the OP, fine with it being rank 10 if your PVP skill line rank was account wide, but with the current set up for all but the top 5% (just a guess), Vigor was out of reach on an alt.

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

It is so so so frustrating. Again stuff is getting nerfed over PvP. So, in order to make it balanced for pvp, it will probably be made useless for PvE. On top of that, you are probably going to break it again in the process since that seems to happen every time nirnhoned or sharpened is touched. Sharpened and Nirnhoned have worked properly at the same time for probably 2-3 total weeks over the last 3 months.

I like just about everything about ESO. I am cool with the Champion System, the Crown Store, even the Console launch. This constant trashing of gear and skills over PvP is my one and only issue. Somebody is mad because they died, so my gear has to be remade.

If Nirnhorned was giving more spell resist than they expected, then it wasn't 'nerfed over PVP'. It is being brought back in line to what they originally intended. I hope they keep it pretty good actually because of its added cost. For all we know, making PVE harder may be their primary reason for fixing this now that they know about it.

timidobserver · April 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Thank you! Very good info to know for gear planning.

Weberda wrote: »

Vigor at Alliance rank 5. Congrats ZOS. You're turning PvP into a real joke. Kids complain because they have to earn something and you just cave in like marshmallows. Between this and the keeps bonuses outside of Cyrodiil you may as well just give everybody all the goodies and make everybody V14 so they don't have to work for that either and shut down PvP. That will take care of some of the lag anyway. And those of us who pay for a challenge in a game can go elsewhere.

I am not a kid. That is the problem, actually. I understand wanting something to strive for and look forward to in PVP, but Vigor was undeniably too long of a grind for such a powerful skill when you consider a lot of people like to have alts and that Vigor really adds a ton of viability. As I said in the OP, fine with it being rank 10 if your PVP skill line rank was account wide, but with the current set up for all but the top 5% (just a guess), Vigor was out of reach on an alt.

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

It is so so so frustrating. Again stuff is getting nerfed over PvP. So, in order to make it balanced for pvp, it will probably be made useless for PvE. On top of that, you are probably going to break it again in the process since that seems to happen every time nirnhoned or sharpened is touched. Sharpened and Nirnhoned have worked properly at the same time for probably 2-3 total weeks over the last 3 months.

I like just about everything about ESO. I am cool with the Champion System, the Crown Store, even the Console launch. This constant trashing of gear and skills over PvP is my one and only issue. Somebody is mad because they died, so my gear has to be remade.

If Nirnhorned was giving more spell resist than they expected, then it wasn't 'nerfed over PVP'. It is being brought back in line to what they originally intended. I hope they keep it pretty good actually because of its added cost. For all we know, making PVE harder may be their primary reason for fixing this now that they know about it.

...It's pretty obvious that it is PvP. You see the nerf announced in the alliance war thread not a PVE section thread? Honestly, on this nothing you say can change my opinion because it isn't about nirnhoned. It's just a culmination of all of the nerfs to various things that have occurred over PvP. This is just one of them.

trimsic_ESO · April 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

And this will the return of Elder Magicka Online. Well, actually it has always been the Elder Magicka Online since day 1: overpowered magicka builds, 1100K damage to kill 1 sorc because of stacking damage shields, magicka builds having both huge offense and defense abilities, etc...

I'll have a look to the next major update, but if nothing is done to balance the game so as to have stamina builds on par with magicka builds it's the end of the game for me.

By the way, I spent over 100k for my Nirn stuff. But who cares...

Edit: with 4 pieces of armor with a nirn trait and 36k spell resist I still get nuked for 8k damage with crystal fragment. Without the nirn trait, it's about 12k damage. How can I compete with my stamina skills that are just ridiculous compared to what magicka skills can do, if I'm not a NB with a bow or a NB chaining surprise attacks?

Cody · April 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

i do not mind vigor taking till the next update. but the nirnhoned change? the nirnhoned change is literally game breaking. If the next major update is truly not until console release, then y'all may end up losing a great majority of your PvP base. I am amazed hardcore people like Ezareth still stick around for it tbh:/

edit, so console release is in June? thought it was in december or some long date.

still though, this issue needs fixing ASAP

Cody · April 2015

and I hope y'all refund peoples gold:/

y'all could give all the gold to me... i can make use of it:D

Bahalul · April 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

AR 5?

That is way too low.

Make it 8, or 9.

Not 5.

Ezareth · April 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

It is so so so frustrating. Again stuff is getting nerfed over PvP. So, in order to make it balanced for pvp, it will probably be made useless for PvE. On top of that, you are probably going to break it again in the process since that seems to happen every time nirnhoned or sharpened is touched. Sharpened and Nirnhoned have worked properly at the same time for probably 2-3 total weeks over the last 3 months.

I like just about everything about ESO. I am cool with the Champion System, the Crown Store, even the Console launch. This constant trashing of gear and skills over PvP is my one and only issue. Somebody is mad because they died, so my gear has to be remade.

It was obvious to everyone no matter how much they argue to the contrary that this one trait is far more powerful than any armor trait deserves to be. A sure indicator something is OP is the moment every hardcore player such as myself(and many others here) instantly converts all their gear over to it.

Additionally it further increased the divide between Medium and Light armors and stamina builds in general not just because Magicka damage is cut significantly but because the protection it offers to light armor it offers twice as much to on Medium armor and 3 times as much to Heavy. Force multipliers in this game should be a rare and extremely limited thing, not something you can stack on 8 pieces of crafted gear.

Everyone (including ZoS) evidently thought this armor trait was working just like Reinforced and the patch notes mention that specifically. Once it became clear that it was multiplicative with your overall spell resist people started switching in droves. There is a reason Fortified Nirncrux which used to sell for 10K is now selling for 19K.

RinaldoGandolphi · April 2015

I noticed something the other day dont know if its relevent but.

Testing on saber cats vet 10 in the rift if you use element weakness + sharpened + apprentice and enough divine pieces you can actually get your spells to do more damage then what is stated on the tool tip without a critical hit as I saw on cls.

This I either a bug, or cls is reporting wrong I was using crushing shock when I noticed it. If this a bug, it could mean you start getting more damage as you put resistance into negative values on the target instead of the spell just doing its full tool tip value it starts doing more.

I really hope this isn't exploitable, infactvi hope cls is wrong, someone should try it and see if they can reproduce.

timidobserver · April 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

It is so so so frustrating. Again stuff is getting nerfed over PvP. So, in order to make it balanced for pvp, it will probably be made useless for PvE. On top of that, you are probably going to break it again in the process since that seems to happen every time nirnhoned or sharpened is touched. Sharpened and Nirnhoned have worked properly at the same time for probably 2-3 total weeks over the last 3 months.

I like just about everything about ESO. I am cool with the Champion System, the Crown Store, even the Console launch. This constant trashing of gear and skills over PvP is my one and only issue. Somebody is mad because they died, so my gear has to be remade.

It was obvious to everyone no matter how much they argue to the contrary that this one trait is far more powerful than any armor trait deserves to be. A sure indicator something is OP is the moment every hardcore player such as myself(and many others here) instantly converts all their gear over to it.

Additionally it further increased the divide between Medium and Light armors and stamina builds in general not just because Magicka damage is cut significantly but because the protection it offers to light armor it offers twice as much to on Medium armor and 3 times as much to Heavy. Force multipliers in this game should be a rare and extremely limited thing, not something you can stack on 8 pieces of crafted gear.

Everyone (including ZoS) evidently thought this armor trait was working just like Reinforced and the patch notes mention that specifically. Once it became clear that it was multiplicative with your overall spell resist people started switching in droves. There is a reason Fortified Nirncrux which used to sell for 10K is now selling for 19K.

Sure, every PvPer converts their gear to it. Every time PvPers find a way to make people whine about dying, I have to remake my gear or respec my skills because stuff gets nerfed.

Xsorus · April 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

It is so so so frustrating. Again stuff is getting nerfed over PvP. So, in order to make it balanced for pvp, it will probably be made useless for PvE. On top of that, you are probably going to break it again in the process since that seems to happen every time nirnhoned or sharpened is touched. Sharpened and Nirnhoned have worked properly at the same time for probably 2-3 total weeks over the last 3 months.

I like just about everything about ESO. I am cool with the Champion System, the Crown Store, even the Console launch. This constant trashing of gear and skills over PvP is my one and only issue. Somebody is mad because they died, so my gear has to be remade.

It was obvious to everyone no matter how much they argue to the contrary that this one trait is far more powerful than any armor trait deserves to be. A sure indicator something is OP is the moment every hardcore player such as myself(and many others here) instantly converts all their gear over to it.

Additionally it further increased the divide between Medium and Light armors and stamina builds in general not just because Magicka damage is cut significantly but because the protection it offers to light armor it offers twice as much to on Medium armor and 3 times as much to Heavy. Force multipliers in this game should be a rare and extremely limited thing, not something you can stack on 8 pieces of crafted gear.

Everyone (including ZoS) evidently thought this armor trait was working just like Reinforced and the patch notes mention that specifically. Once it became clear that it was multiplicative with your overall spell resist people started switching in droves. There is a reason Fortified Nirncrux which used to sell for 10K is now selling for 19K.

Everyone converted to it because Sorcs damage and survival is over the top.

When you're running solo, you build your toon to defend against the most powerful thing on the field...and that's currently Sorcs.