Please Stop Trivializing Content

NordJitsu

When I first started playing this game back in early Beta, it was hard. And I loved it.

I relished the fact that I was seeing people dying to one or two wolves on Bleak Rock Isle. I loved that you could not get through the game without learning to dodge, interrupt, and BLOCK.

The game taught you how to play through repeated death. Was it Dark Souls? Not hardly. But it was refreshingly difficult for an MMO.

There were also several hard fights throughout the game that served as learning points. You'd be going through the game just throwing whatever you liked on your bar and doing well in overland content. Then you'd get to Balreth/Gutsripper/Doshia/ect. and learn whether you were playing the game properly or not. I loved watching people complain about these bosses in zone chat. It made me feel like my victory over them had been meaningful, since so many people were having trouble with it.

Not only that, I enjoyed helping people improve. My response to, "oh my gosh, Balreth is impossible" was never "learn to play noob." Instead I'd take the time to explain the mechanics of the talisman. I'd ask people what class they were, what build they were running, how they were geared, ect.

This was a good thing. These bosses forced people to improve. They slowed down the
progression to endgame and made leveling actually meaningful.

Now you've got a situation where any half competent player is going to blow through this content. That's why we ended up with a game where plenty of people were already Veteran Rank a few days into the launch of the game. Worse, the game allows people to continue being bad. They will get all the way to level 50 (possibly beyond) without ever learning to play well.

Molag Bal was nerfed. Gutsripper was nerfed. Balreth was nerfed. By the might of Stendarr's hammer Mannimarco was DEFILED.

When I first fought Mannimarco in the closed Beta, he whomped me pretty good. I fought him at level 40 and he handed me my arse, twice. He did so so easily that I decided I wasn't powerful enough to fight him. I went and leveled a bit and came back at level 43. He whomped me again. I changed my build around. He whomped me again. In all, at level 43, he beat me 5-6 times. I played with skills a little bit more and learned his mechanics until, finally, I beat him.

When I did so I was low on health and frustrated with the repeated deaths. But guess what, killing him felt great. I was a better player for it. I knew the game better. I knew my own play style better. I was just better.

I just redid this fight for the first time post-nerf last night. I did it the second I hit level 40. I didn't go out of my way to optimize my build, I mostly just kept the skills I'd been leveling with. I didn't eat any food. I was wearing gear that was damaged and 8 levels too low. Manni never got me bellow 90% health.

This time when I beat him, I felt like I had just beat up a small and sickly child, not the King of Worms.

His mechanics are the same. I interrupt the life drain (which I don't need to do from range any more because I'm in no danger), I dodge his AoE, and...well that's pretty much it. I didn't even have to kill the adds really. I just ignored them and kept plugging away at Manni.

The toughest challenge from 1-50 has been totally and completely trivialized.

So what is the result of this change? Beating Manni no longer made me feel good. New players who do this will learn nothing about their build or how to play the game. This means when they get to Veteran Dungeons, heck even Veteran over-world content, they're going to feel a huge difficulty spike. They're gonna be like, "whoah!?! What's this about? I'm a good player. I just owned everything from 1-50 and now I'm dying all the time. This game is unfair, better unsubscribe or go to the forums to complain about how hard everything is."

And its your fault ZOS. They're going to be mad and you're going to want to respond by nerfing that content too. But its your fault for not teaching them how to play as the leveled.

Please, please, please stop nerfing PvE content. You're making it boring.

The latest Patch Notes said you're nerfing Doshia too (which is what inspired this rant.) Doshia was never hard to begin with!!!!

At this point the only challenge will be Veteran Dungeons and Craglorn. So why not just grind to 50 and skip all the content you made to get there? I don't want to waste my time with gameplay that isn't fun. And easy isn't fun. PvP is less of a challenge now as well, because people are going to be hitting VR1 and heading into Cyrodil with junk builds.


I know you're probably thinking lowest common denominator here. There's probably someone in a suit somewhere worried that people are going unsubscribe if things are too difficult. But guess what? Good players are going to unsubscribe if there isn't any engaging content. I'm sure Craglorn will be hard (for now) but that's not enough. You're placing too much pressure on yourselves by thinking you can keep up with the pace that they're going to go through that content. If 1-50 was a challenge, people might be forced to take more time there.

So in conclusion, I love this game. I loved it even more when it was challenging. Please increase the difficulty of bosses throughout the leveling experience (especially Manni.)

nickster2112b16_ESO

Couldn't agree more with this post, please stop the nerfing of content. We don't want a game where any bad player can complete the content like other (shall not be named) mmo's we want a challenge, we want too feel like we have achieved something when we finally conquer it.

Runihura

As someone who has beaten all of these bosses at their hardest on the PTS, I fully support and reinforce this message. Please reconsider the decision to make these fights easier. These are the fights that truly taught me how to play my class.

Mannimarco is now a complete pushover and it is so very disappointing.

Burrmab

I completely agree with everything stated here 200%

Being that i was in the PTS I always heard players say that the Mannimarco fight was a rough ride and it took them time to figure out how to kill him and that it was one of the toughest fights in the game, I was really looking forward to the challenge. I never managed to get that far in the PTS but when I was heading into the fight (after everything i heard) I was on the edge of my seat waiting for that thrill and getting prepared mentally to die over and over again but.. I was sadly disappointed.

The fight was way to easy! I felt cheated. While fighting him I had no trouble with anything he threw at me and I was at his level. After beating him I was sorely disappointed and was like (what the heck was that)

The game's difficulty just seems so trivial its ridiculous. I cant tell you how many times I have heard and seen people say that going through 1-50 was easy then they hit VR+ content and they are all like "omg this is way to hard, they need to nerf everything i cant do this" It should not be like this ZOS. 1-50 should be the training ground for VR content. I am so tired of players dieing in my groups to puny mobs Soooo many times in VR content and them crying about how the mob was too hard. This is not right. I love this game and plan on playing it for a very long time but it is way to easy and i have a hard time keeping awake through it due to the game not being anywhere near challenging.

There are always going to be people that complain that the game is too hard in certain areas but you shouldn't be spoon feeding them everything. So many people are going to quit because the game isn't engaging and is way to easy.

Please ZOS stop nerfing.

ZiRM

They want to reach as wide an audience as they can and lets face it alot of people aren't pros at playing MMO's. I don't condone the dumbing down of content but when it all boils down to it it's about money. Easier content= wider player base=$$$

Daenerys

I completely and totally agree with you.

Months ago, I used to have so much fun, but now it is too easy. There is no challenge, and thus there is no real feeling of accomplishment. So why bother? I solo world bosses at lvl 40 in Coldharbour, I have played b/w 10-16 lvls above mine w/a friend this playthrough to try, TRY, to find a challenge - without success. I'm just an average player, this is ridiculous.

I too feel bad for Mannimarco, I felt like a bully, picking on a little boy who couldn't defend himself. What market are we catering to here? Pandering to the lowest common denominator is the worst possible thing they can do.

Nerfing Doshia again?! Why?! This is madness, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

I'm hoping VR content hasn't been hit too hard w/the nerf hammer, but I'll find out in the next day or two. I'm really looking forward to Craglorn, still keeping my fingers crossed, hoping for the best.

This game has so much potential, please stop nerfing.

NordJitsu

NiRN wrote: »

They want to reach as wide an audience as they can and lets face it alot of people aren't pros at playing MMO's. I don't condone the dumbing down of content but when it all boils down to it it's about money. Easier content= wider player base=$$$

I believe this is their thinking as well, but its wrong.

Trivializing the leveling means that the core of the player base is going to grind through it as fast as they can to get to the part of the game that actually challenges them. This puts too much pressure on the devs to push out new tough content at an unrealistic pace.

I'm still taking it slow this time because I enjoy the story. But I'm a rare type of player in that regard. I do find myself getting bored with the combat though, which sucks.

Burrmab

Daenerys wrote: »

I too feel bad for Mannimarco, I felt like a bully, picking on a little boy who couldn't defend himself. What market are we catering to here? Pandering to the lowest common denominator is the worst possible thing they can do.

I couldn't have said it better.

Devilfish85

I completely agree with the OP. I barely had time to play during the beta weekends I joined in on, so I'm encountering most of the content for the first time. While I've found a few solo boss fights a little difficult, there has never been one that I couldn't beat with a little thought... such as changing my ability bar to suit the fight. This is another area where ESO is different from previous MMO's in a dynamic and decidedly good way.

However, I can see how one (IMO) fault of ESO might be compounding this problem. Though there are a few popup messages early on, I personally find the the current tutorial system vague and insufficient. An update ingame, or even a combat primer on the website, might help people build the right foundational skills and mindset early on to adapt and overcome the way ESO encourages.

Nerf a man a boss, and he'll win for a day. Teach him to fight like a boss, and he'll win for a lifetime.

NordJitsu

Devilfish85 wrote: »

An update ingame, or even a combat primer on the website, might help people build the right foundational skills and mindset early on to adapt and overcome the way ESO encourages.

Nerf a man a boss, and he'll win for a day. Teach him to fight like a boss, and he'll win for a lifetime.

I support this.

Instead of trivializing content for those who do know how to play, the focus should be on teaching those who are having issues.

MorHawk

NordJitsu wrote: »

I support this.

Instead of trivializing content for those who do know how to play, the focus should be on teaching those who are having issues.

Yep. More of a lead up to the fight instead of faceroll content until that point would have prepared people.

Falcor

Couldn't agree more Nord. I miss the challenge i faced on the PTS. These days it feels like i can just walk all over everything

LimeCupcake

Yes, keep the game challenging. The challenge and the need to think and plan through a fight is the #1 reason I am playing this game. Another game, which shall remain nameless, was great when I was a teenager all the mindless 1,2,1,2 pushing seemed fun. However, I am a grown up and this felt like a grown up game that engages the mind. Please keep it this way.

liquid_wolf

I support this as well.

Death isn't permanent, and players can figure things out.

I want difficult content that encourages people to think, stay ready, and manage their resources.

More important I want them to have fun.

I hope the Veteran Content is this way. I really enjoyed that style of gameplay.

Darastix

I would have personally preferred them allowing someone to get help from their friends in these "solo" quests over making the fight easier, but in the end if making it easier keeps players from quitting from frustration then ill accept it. Although the game overall seems heavily weighted in favor of those with good gear, proper skill choices AKA "The Trinity" in groups with seasoned teams, personal skill is at most a minor factor.

Anatha

This is coming from someone who really struggled with Mannimarco. I voiced my concerns that I was physically having problems getting through the quest to kill him. Many, many years of working on a computer has done some damage to my wrists and hands. Some said in so many words that I should quit. Some supported me and helped me tweak my build so it would not be as physically painful to take him out. I finally beat him in PTS (after he was already nerfed). Don't nerf the game any more. I am not saying that every player needs to become an elite player, but there are strategies to figure out the best skills for whatever class you are to take out what is causing the challenge, like Mannimarco. I learned to move better, use better combos of skills with his quest and had to change things up for the MB fight. Please leave the challenge in the game. Anyone can beat the bosses with a little practice and skill changes.

MongooseOne

Couldn't agree more. I enjoy this game like I haven't enjoyed a MMO in a very long time. Making it so easy it gets boring may be the best way to run me off.

NordJitsu

Darastix wrote: »

I would have personally preferred them allowing someone to get help from their friends in these "solo" quests over making the fight easier, but in the end if making it easier keeps players from quitting from frustration then ill accept it. Although the game overall seems heavily weighted in favor of those with good gear, proper skill choices AKA "The Trinity" in groups with seasoned teams, personal skill is at most a minor factor.

You're 100% wrong here.

What makes this game so great is that player skill really really matters in combat. Like, a lot. Or at least it did in the old Mannimarco fight. Proper use of skills, dodging, blocking, interrupting, ect. determined whether you won or lost.

You could have two players with the exact same build and one would get owned by a boss while the other would embarrass it.

nudel

I couldn't have said it better Nord. I sadly never got to pre-nerf Manni and when I finally did get to him, I felt robbed. I did have an awesome time with pre-nerf Doshia and Aldimion. Doshia was one of my favorite bosses in the game. Even before I saw the complaints in chat, I felt like I'd really accomplished something. My heart had been racing the whole fight. The live version of Doshia is laughable as it is and now they're going to nerf her again. Now, the only thing separating some of these key story bosses from normal mobs is their health pool.

The game is quickly turning into a point-and-click adventure. I mourn the MMO that I fell in love with, the one that was trying to be different.

bearcalypse

If the philosophy of the game is to play how you want or have the freedom to play your class how you want, you're going to need to greatly tweak down forced-solo bosses. I've had to help several people in game with skills required to take down bosses. That's not 'play how you want'. If certain skills and builds are required for progression, the game designers are going to have to actually tell the players that. So either stop lying about the game, or make it easier by dropping content difficulty or allowing grouping so people with only stamina attacks can beat all the bosses or other equally silly builds like that.

There isn't that much skill involved in this game, it's just a matter of getting the right build and triggering block and dodge at the correct cues (and even that doesn't work all the time because bosses get bugged and look like they're standing still on your screen but in fact they're winding up a big attack) and hoping something doesn't get bugged. At least if the bugs were fixed (no visible cues on bosses, no help from NPCs), they could actually evaluate the content as to how it's supposed to perform, but obviously in the current buggy state that's not possible.

So as a result you have the current state now where gullible people actually believe they can use any build to beat buggy bosses and get wafflestomped and then come here to complain or worse, just give up. Honestly when I played the game in beta, it was less buggy than this so I keep being tempted to just take a few months break once Wildstar comes out to allow the bugs to get fixed and then come back when the game goes free to play.

Kendaric

The game is still challenging for the majority of players, including myself. I do not use an optimal build nor do I want to be forced into using one just to be able to pass the bosses.
I prefer to play a pure stamina based warrior type, I simply can't stand the flashy class powers and therefore avoid them. Such a character as mine, however, must still be able to beat the boss fights in the main quest somehow. Ideally, they'd just allow us to group for the boss fights in the main quest, that way those of you who enjoy the difficulty as is get to keep it while we who need or prefer to have help, can get it.

icengr_ESO

NiRN wrote: »

They want to reach as wide an audience as they can and lets face it alot of people aren't pros at playing MMO's. I don't condone the dumbing down of content but when it all boils down to it it's about money. Easier content= wider player base=$$$

Hit the nail on the head. they wouldn't make the game if they couldn't make money at it.
but I do agree with the OP I hope they don't nerf the content.

nudel

bearcalypse wrote: »

If the philosophy of the game is to play how you want or have the freedom to play your class how you want, you're going to need to greatly tweak down forced-solo bosses. I've had to help several people in game with skills required to take down bosses. That's not 'play how you want'.

I'm getting really sick of seeing this 'play how you want' being used as a slogan for people complaining about the game. I've seen it used as evidence against Craglorn being group content, inventory space limits, the absence of an AH, and now even game balance. This is getting ridiculous. I'd be getting a good laugh out of it really... if ZOS weren't taking it all so seriously.

Devilfish85

Kendaric wrote: »

The game is still challenging for the majority of players, including myself. I do not use an optimal build nor do I want to be forced into using one just to be able to pass the bosses.
I prefer to play a pure stamina based warrior type, I simply can't stand the flashy class powers and therefore avoid them. Such a character as mine, however, must still be able to beat the boss fights in the main quest somehow. Ideally, they'd just allow us to group for the boss fights in the main quest, that way those of you who enjoy the difficulty as is get to keep it while we who need or prefer to have help, can get it.

You've chosen a tougher route here, but I support your ability to do so. I'm an immersionist, roleplayer, and whatever else, so I hope ESO continues to enable us to place limitations on ourselves if it helps us enjoy the game or better identify with our characters, while still remaining mostly viable.

I have to point out though, that my intention and probably that of a lot of people here, isn't to suggest you use an 'optimal build'... but rather be open to adapting you strategy. Some more traditional MMOs lock you into the idea that 'this is your class, this is what you can and cant do, work with that'. From what I've experienced, I dont think you need to use a mathematically superior build, but instead be willing to forego that traditional mindset and be willing to adapt your ability choices on the fly to suit the situation. I'm probably overexplaining, I tend to do that, but... not tweaking your build to be more mathematically sound. Rather, tweaking your build to better fit the individual fight tactics.

For instance, I have a few configurations written down right here... my usual single target stunlock, a multi-target AoE, one that supports a group well, one that gives me some extra punch against daedra, on that maximizes endurance and self healing...

Kendaric

Devilfish85 wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

The game is still challenging for the majority of players, including myself. I do not use an optimal build nor do I want to be forced into using one just to be able to pass the bosses.
I prefer to play a pure stamina based warrior type, I simply can't stand the flashy class powers and therefore avoid them. Such a character as mine, however, must still be able to beat the boss fights in the main quest somehow. Ideally, they'd just allow us to group for the boss fights in the main quest, that way those of you who enjoy the difficulty as is get to keep it while we who need or prefer to have help, can get it.

You've chosen a tougher route here, but I support your ability to do so. I'm an immersionist, roleplayer, and whatever else, so I hope ESO continues to enable us to place limitations on ourselves if it helps us enjoy the game or better identify with our characters, while still remaining mostly viable.

I have to point out though, that my intention and probably that of a lot of people here, isn't to suggest you use an 'optimal build'... but rather be open to adapting you strategy. Some more traditional MMOs lock you into the idea that 'this is your class, this is what you can and cant do, work with that'. From what I've experienced, I dont think you need to use a mathematically superior build, but instead be willing to forego that traditional mindset and be willing to adapt your ability choices on the fly to suit the situation. I'm probably overexplaining, I tend to do that, but... not tweaking your build to be more mathematically sound. Rather, tweaking your build to better fit the individual fight tactics.

For instance, I have a few configurations written down right here... my usual single target stunlock, a multi-target AoE, one that supports a group well, one that gives me some extra punch against daedra, on that maximizes endurance and self healing...

I do change my setup/tactics depending on a fight. The problem is that some fights seem to expect that you have access to, for example, a number of your class skill lines. Those are abilities I generally lack (the only class ability I actually use is Stonefist as it looks appropriate for the character) and this is a handicap in many boss fights in the main quest.
I don't mind it as much with area storyline bosses, as I can always group up to defeat them if I can't handle them (only case for me was Meryndril in Deshaan so far).
In cases like "Halls of Torment", I can overlevel the quest and make it easier that way, but as I get closer to level 50 that's not really an option. Granted, the inactive NPC companion during the quest didn't help making the fight less difficult...

The solutions I see:

- Allow players to be grouped for the main quest.
- Fix the companions to behave properly and allow players to hire a NPC to come along for area & guild storyline bosses if the player needs it.

NordJitsu

@bearcalypse‌

That's nonsense. "Play how you want" has nothing to do with the conversation.

No rational person could take that to mean "put whatever skills you want on your bar and still win." That's just silly.

Play how you want means there is a wide variety of builds that are viable. There's probably hundreds if not thousands of different ways you could have beaten the old Manni. There was no need to shoe-horn you into cookie-cutter optimal builds. All you needed to do was find a good build that also meshed with your play style. Of which there are many possibilities.

The more important part of it was player skill, which is a huge factor in this game. Anyone who doesn't think that's true frankly doesn't understand the combat well (thus is low on player skill.)

@Kendaric‌

I really really doubt the game is challenging for a "majority of players." I feel for you if its hard for you, but the answer isn't to ruin the game by trivializing it.

You just need to continue to improve as a player, which is fun. The whole point of video games since for ever has been to overcome challenges. Ever play super mario on the old nintendo systems? How good did it feel when you finally beat Bowser?

How would it have felt if they took out fall deaths? So instead of dying you just port back to the place you fell. Yay, play how you want to play! Falling off of cliffs is now a viable strategy!

Xexpo

Kendaric wrote: »

The game is still challenging for the majority of players, including myself. I do not use an optimal build nor do I want to be forced into using one just to be able to pass the bosses.
I prefer to play a pure stamina based warrior type, I simply can't stand the flashy class powers and therefore avoid them. Such a character as mine, however, must still be able to beat the boss fights in the main quest somehow. Ideally, they'd just allow us to group for the boss fights in the main quest, that way those of you who enjoy the difficulty as is get to keep it while we who need or prefer to have help, can get it.

so many assumptions, it's painful to read...

and I can't stop laughing at this : "simply can't stand flashy class powers" why? because they are flashy? that's got to be a first

NordJitsu

Oh....

Opening these fights to groups is a horrible idea. That would trivialize things even more.

That's like super duper easy mode.

reggielee

I agree on the difficulty level remaining the same, there are many fights where I die repeatedly. sure i scream and holler but then somewhere along the way I learn to time blocks, dodges and rolls. I learn to use certain spells more effectively so I dont drain my mana or stamina and be left open to insta kills. In short I come off all those deaths a better player.


for the OP, even tho you revisited your nemesis under leveled and with poorer gear, you still had the 'brain' advantages and muscle memory of all your prior learning. this could have attributed to the ease of your kill alot more than you give yourself credit for. many a game when i start a new alt and go to once horrid regions its a breeze due to having learned the game already

Ravinsild

Basically they nerfed it because people came to the forums saying "YOU TOLD ME I COULD PLAY ANY WAY I WANT AND THE WAY I WANT TO PLAY IS HAVING 4 DEFENSIVE SPELLS AND THE WEAKEST OFFENSIVE ATTACK EVER. I CAN'T BEAT THIS BOSS BECAUSE I DON'T DO ENOUGH DAMAGE. I WANT TO PLAY HOW I WANT TO PLAY BECAUSE YOU TOLD ME I COULD. NERF IT NOW OR I'M QUITTING!!!!"

So now everything is easy because everything has to be doable with literally every kind of build in the game ever.

bearcalypse

NordJitsu wrote: »

@bearcalypse‌

That's nonsense. "Play how you want" has nothing to do with the conversation.

No rational person could take that to mean "put whatever skills you want on your bar and still win." That's just silly.

Yeah you say that and right after my post yet another person posts about having a pure stamina skill based build. This is obviously not a unique snowflake build. There are a significant number of people, RP or not who want a non-magic based build and expect to be able to beat the game with it. There are also the people who try the dodge-build by putting as many miss and dodge skills on their bar as possible and pretending to be a monk and plenty of other variations and niche builds. You call it silly, I call it silly, but RPers are still paying customers and I have a feeling the game designers like their money as much as anyone else's.