** Sorcerers aren't Sorcerers, they are jack-of-all-Mages **

onlinegamer1

(skip down to "TL/DR line" if you don't want details)
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In my opinion, the main problem with Sorcerers is that they are not, in fact, what I consider to be Sorcerers. If I were to list all of the "magical" character types (aka classes) from fantasy and gaming, we'd have quite a large list: Shamans, Wizards, Sorcerers, Necromancers, Summoners, etc.

While many of us may not agree 100% on which "spells" each of those classes should have, I am confident we would all agree that they are different from each other.

So, in my opinion, the current implementation of ESO Sorcerer has the following mix of spells:
- Some Wizard spells
- Some Shaman spells
- Some Summoner spells
- Some actual Sorcerer spells

This is mainly due to the fact that ESO only has 4 classes, so each class is a sort of "Mega Archetype", trying to squeeze in every "idea" or "concept" that might comprise such a class. This seems to have been done in a way that mostly works for the other 3 classes, but falls short when it comes to Sorcerers. I will try to describe why I think this is so.

For the other 3 classes, each of the 3 "lines" of class skills are fairly synergistic to each other. For example, you can meaningfully mix Assassination skills, Shadow skills and Syphoning skills into an effective hotbar. Same goes for Ardent Flame / Draconic Power / Earthen Heart. Until recently, Templars had a rough time at such synergy, but I feel as of 1.6 it is just barely getting to the point where the 3 lines (Aedric Spear, Dawn's Wrath, Restoring Light) can play well together into a hotbar setup. This is definitely assuming that other skills are mixed in from various places (Weapon skills, Fighters/Mages Guild, WW/Vampire, Assault/Support, etc.)

But I feel that the Sorcerer set of skills not only lacks the same synergy, but really lacks even the most basic elements of what I feel is truly "sorcery".

Daedric Summoning is a mix of Shaman and Summoner skills (curses and summons). In this case, Armor and Ward are classified as summoning something.

Dark Magic is a mix of Wizard, Necromancy, Summoning and, IMHO, the only true Sorcerer skill in the game (Rune Prison).

Storm Calling is exclusively what I would classify as Wizard skills.

To me, and I do realize this is only an opinion, but a Sorcerer should be more about enchantments, charms, mesmerizing, holding, and draining or syphoning of energy. I would expect a class called "Sorcerer" to have not only a mesmerize (Rune Prison, keeps you immobile until someone hits you, which is classic "mez" behavior in most MMORPGs), but to have some real holds (Encase is close), enhantments/charms (make enemy into friend for short periods, in PvP would turn enemies unattackable/untargettable, and friendly faction into attackable/targettable), and some kind of draining attack, such as an attack which deals damage to you if you have a Shield or other Buff effect running (a kind of feedback attack).


****************************** TL/DR line *******************************

Anyway, I realize its probably too late for a "rewrite" of Sorcerer. So, with that in mind, I think it *is* possible to phase out a few weaker abilities in exchange for a few which are more synergistic and would improve the flow and feel of the class overall.

Some changes I think would make the difference:
1. Swap out Bound Armor for "Feedback", a straight up DoT ability which deals damage based on how many active buffs the target has (not counting "permanent" ones like Campaign, Mundus Stones, etc., only short "timed" buffs like Surge, Rally, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Conjured Ward, etc.) The more buffs the target has going, the harder the DoT ticks. And yes, it would specifically bypass shields.
2. Swap out Lighting Form for "Lightning Bolt", a straight up, 1 target DPS spammable skill. Should be at least as powerful as Force Shock from Destro staff, if not in actual damage #, then with a very good side ability. It definitely would be able to proc Disintegrate, maybe at a higher rate.

Now, this won't fix everything, but I feel that the "harmonics" of Sorcerers would change a bit for the better if changes like these (or something similar) were made.

Shunravi

I agree, sorcerers in eso are not sorcerers in the classic sense. They are based on a different archetype (the TES archetype, and it fails at that.)

It's rather sad that this is the case, but it's the choice the developers chose to make.

And is it weird that i think half the stuff that you think sorcerers should be describes nightblades to me? I think it's weird.

Ommamar

I think this is the huge problem with having "classes" the perception people bring from other games. I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying but I think one of the strengths of the Sorcerer is how many different ways you can spec them. I like the idea of the option to change a skill at morph to fit the idea of changing what that skill does, but I wouldn't be for removing them as they might fit someones play style.

ArconSeptim

Again me, pardon, but sorcerers of ESO biggest whiners on the forum!
Always something wrong, but you chosed that play style, sorcs have biggest DPS in game and can mix their class spells with all weapons trees.

ArconSeptim

So if you dont know how to build the character please dont spam forums whining.

SanderBuraas

ArconSeptim wrote: »

So if you dont know how to build the character please dont spam forums whining.

You obviously don't play a Sorcerer? We might have high single target dps, which by the way is not useful at all in pve, but we do not have any great aoe damage or off-heal. We have some upcoming changes to a couple abilities and a passive, but there are still so many abilities in our skill lines that are never used by any Sorcerers. Bound armour, lightning form, dark deal, rune prison; these are all examples of skills that should be replaced, altered or upgraded.

knaveofengland

they game will change over time look at Microsoft how many years to fix internet explorer , we all want more of every thing for now this is what we have
have you posted your ideas in the right place might be looked at and maybe in the future who knows.

Ommamar

Huh funny I made a sorcerer on test who uses two of those skills Lightning form and dark deal on the main bar. He totally rocks Craglorn group delves with the template equipment so not optimized at all.
My suggestion is never claim people are never doing something. You have your way of playing this doesn't mean everyone plays the same way.

Emma_Overload

knaveofengland wrote: »

they game will change over time look at Microsoft how many years to fix internet explorer , we all want more of every thing for now this is what we have
have you posted your ideas in the right place might be looked at and maybe in the future who knows.

Ha ha, I just had to laugh at this!

I'm sorry, man, but I don't think most players are gonna want to wait for a Microsoftian eon for Sorcerers to be fixed. That's really not the kind of timescale I signed up for!

Valymer

ArconSeptim wrote: »

sorcs have biggest DPS in game and can mix their class spells with all weapons trees.

You must have access to some killer crack cocaine to be making statements like this.

Snit

ArconSeptim wrote: »

Again me, pardon, but sorcerers of ESO biggest whiners on the forum!

Why do you suppose that is?

Athas24

While I agree the sorcerer doesn't seem exceptionally Magic like...I do enjoy some of the versatility etc. I think ESO went heavily into Sorcerer's being dependent on their weapon of choice is all. I would like a few AOE damage options in trees though. I also think the night blade's class skills for the syphon tree would be Amazing on a Sorc.

clocksstoppe

cool story bro.

Muizer

People can be, and more often than not are, a mage of one sort or another in any class. Lots of class abilities are magical and then there's the destro and restro weapon line. I challenge you, try not to be a mage of sorts in this game and see how well you fare! I guess "play as you want" means sorcerers are just one breed of mage and melee warriors are non-existent.

seanvwolf

Smepic wrote: »

Bound armour, lightning form, dark deal, rune prison; these are all examples of skills that should be replaced, altered or upgraded.

I use bound armaments, dark deal and rune cage often to great effect. Just because a majority of people don't know how to use those skills doesn't mean that they don't work or should be replaced.

Shunravi wrote: »

I agree, sorcerers in eso are not sorcerers in the classic sense. They are based on a different archetype (the TES archetype, and it fails at that.)

You do know that the TES Sorcerer archetype uses heavy armor. right? What I think you are confused between is Mage which TES has the ability to build using the Mage skill line and individual class skills (DK fire/earth, Templar heals/fire, Nightblade shadow/siphon, and Sorcerer lightning/dark magic/summoning) and if so inclined, a destruction staff of your choosing.

charley222

not onlyr Sorcerer are a mix of something but all class have the same issue for me , i just hate the hydrid Concept class is look cheap and quick work because you can not be a pure sorcerer or warrior , i

Funkopotamus

IMO. It would do wonders to adjust the skill lines as this.

1] Sorcerer - Destruction/Summoner
2] Templar- Tank/Dps/HEALER
3] DK- Tank/DPS/Ranged

I love playing a caster and even though my idea would leave Sorcs with online two lines of skills it would be a hell of a lot easier to balance. Trying to let a class be Healer/Destruction/Summoner/Tank/Bow-user is a NOT WIN! There is no way in hell to get them playable without making them OP so I understand WHY ZOS is leaving them with very small teeth.

I hope they find a way to make the class enjoyable again at least.

yodased

Too hung up on the name really. Should have called it wonkatastic pet utility class and left the name sorcerer out of it.

As soon as you label it something that is already within the scope of peoples perceptions you are going to have people saying things like:

It HAS to be this way and NOONE uses the skills and its NOT A TRUE SORCERER.

If you don't feel the class is good then thats fine, but having a hangup because its called something specific doesn't mean the class is necessarily broken. (Although I understand it is, I have a vr6 sorc and while fun to play isn't anywhere near my VR1 DK, or my level 47 NB in terms of TTK and ability to solo things.)

Vahrokh

ArconSeptim wrote: »

Again me, pardon, but sorcerers of ESO biggest whiners on the forum!
Always something wrong, but you chosed that play style, sorcs have biggest DPS in game and can mix their class spells with all weapons trees.

Are we playing the same game?

Drazhar14

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

2. Swap out Lighting Form for "Lightning Bolt", a straight up, 1 target DPS spammable skill. Should be at least as powerful as Force Shock from Destro staff, if not in actual damage #, then with a very good side ability. It definitely would be able to proc Disintegrate, maybe at a higher rate.

Don't you dare touch my thunder cat build!

I think of classes as just a theme. Sorcerer can be played as a tank, caster, brawler, etc just as any class can. I like electricity and dark magic, so I picked sorcerer. That being said, some more sorcerer skills could use a tweak of some kind, but lightning form and it's morphs on the PTS are in the perfect spot right now.

Araxleon

One thing I dont understand... as the "mage" class of eso why cant they switch elements on the fly? Whats the point of elements then...
If they had the choice of *fire more damage and dot/Ice snaring and immobilizing/lightning splash and reducing damage of enemies*

They should get a skill to cycle elements.

Shunravi

seanvwolf wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Bound armour, lightning form, dark deal, rune prison; these are all examples of skills that should be replaced, altered or upgraded.

I use bound armaments, dark deal and rune cage often to great effect. Just because a majority of people don't know how to use those skills doesn't mean that they don't work or should be replaced.

Shunravi wrote: »

I agree, sorcerers in eso are not sorcerers in the classic sense. They are based on a different archetype (the TES archetype, and it fails at that.)

You do know that the TES Sorcerer archetype uses heavy armor. right? What I think you are confused between is Mage which TES has the ability to build using the Mage skill line and individual class skills (DK fire/earth, Templar heals/fire, Nightblade shadow/siphon, and Sorcerer lightning/dark magic/summoning) and if so inclined, a destruction staff of your choosing.

@Seanvwolf I am aware. Let me make you aware of how painfully aware I am.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1461128/#Comment_1461128

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1484502/#Comment_1484502

I suggest you read both threads, as I make a fool of myself, and it is quite entertaining.

My earlier comment in this thread was meant to be sarcastically pandering.
Because I don't want to get in another argument.

A1exeR

I read this topic and see how a lot of noobs, who only did quests with their sorc, write how this class is good.
Maybe they even passed a few dungeons (in fact other members of the group do the all work for them), and they think they are good players.
Really matters your competitiveness in SO and DSA, your dps if you dd.
And many of sorc abilities (for example encase,rune cage) do not give anything for such encounter, they are useless.

Valymer

A1exeR wrote: »

I read this topic and see how a lot of noobs, who only did quests with their sorc, write how this class is good.
Maybe they even passed a few dungeons (in fact other members of the group do the all work for them), and they think they are good players.
Really matters your competitiveness in SO and DSA, your dps if you dd.
And many of sorc abilities (for example encase,rune cage) do not give anything for such encounter, they are useless.

It's a recurring theme...people level a sorc up to about level 40 then all of a sudden feel qualified to speak on endgame balance issues.

Blud

A proper sorcerer needs three things:

1 Fireball
2 Lightning bolt
3 Ice bolt

Developers can get creative with everything else after that: pets, armors, shields, buffs, debuffs, DoTs, CC, aoe, etc.

But those top three should be basic for any "mage" type class. Think about the first spells you get in any ES game. They should at least start out like those.

Elron87

Its funny because I was just discussing this subject with my partner the other day. Sorcerer is the main culprit but I also feel the same way about the other classes to an extent.

Im hoping elder scrolls online improves but there are simply to many core design flaws I personally dislike to keep me playing this game. I dont see any major overhauls coming, despite all the criticism, Ive only seen thinly veiled tweaks passed off as 'overhauls'. EG combat animations (I personally think they are boring as hell and the new animations are nothing more then a tweak).

Im just waiting for something new / interesting to come along, holding out for SkyForge and Black Desert Online.

Vahrokh

Elron87 wrote: »

Its funny because I was just discussing this subject with my partner the other day. Sorcerer is the main culprit but I also feel the same way about the other classes to an extent.

Im hoping elder scrolls online improves but there are simply to many core design flaws I personally dislike to keep me playing this game. I dont see any major overhauls coming, despite all the criticism, Ive only seen thinly veiled tweaks passed off as 'overhauls'. EG combat animations (I personally think they are boring as hell and the new animations are nothing more then a tweak).

Im just waiting for something new / interesting to come along, holding out for SkyForge and Black Desert Online.

All my sorc guild mates have quit but me (who recently resubbed... for 1 month) and another guy.

Actually, since they announced F2P half my guild have quit and we can't find people to do trials (before, we had to leave 3-4 guys out some times).

Yeah, ESO is shaping up nicely.

Guess what, I am hoping Trials Of Ascension kickstarter actually works so I can hope in something different

starkerealm

Valymer wrote: »

ArconSeptim wrote: »

sorcs have biggest DPS in game and can mix their class spells with all weapons trees.

You must have access to some killer crack cocaine to be making statements like this.

It's called "being a sorcerer."

Valymer

starkerealm wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

ArconSeptim wrote: »

sorcs have biggest DPS in game and can mix their class spells with all weapons trees.

You must have access to some killer crack cocaine to be making statements like this.

It's called "being a sorcerer."

Oh. Usually when I hear people making wild, unsubstantiated claims which are diametrically opposed with reality they are either high or mentally ill.

My mistake, I supposed that poster belongs in the latter category.

starkerealm

Valymer wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

ArconSeptim wrote: »

sorcs have biggest DPS in game and can mix their class spells with all weapons trees.

You must have access to some killer crack cocaine to be making statements like this.

It's called "being a sorcerer."

Oh. Usually when I hear people making wild, unsubstantiated claims which are diametrically opposed with reality they are either high or mentally ill.

My mistake, I supposed that poster belongs in the latter category.

More the former. Once your roll one for awhile TEH POWAH! goes to your head a little.