Stat comparison from live to PTS (1.6) Is it really a blanket nerf? Doesn't look like it.

Alphashado

We all understand there is some concern about 1.6 being a blanket nerf. Understandably so, people are focused on stat reductions veiled by the overall increase. However I am interested in facts, not rumor or speculation. This is just one small test that I conducted to compare health on both me and the same mob on live vs PTS (1.6)

Please feel free to offer similar comparisons with data to back up your claims. We all know that there are nerfs in 1.6 We all know that some skills were substantially buffed in 1.6 What we don't know is how the Environment was changed to match us.

Here is a small comparison I just did:

I opened both the live version and the PTS. I logged into the same character (V14 Templar), removed all buffs including food. He is wearing the exact same gear in both versions. One is using thief mundis, the other is using shadow. Neither contribute to health. There are no pts in the Champion tree on the PTS Templar that added any health. So this conversion is w/o any CP influence.

I went to the same Giant encampment in Eastmarch and parked both versions of my Templar in front of the same Giant.

Unbuffed Templar on the live version has 1,833 health. As you can see, the Giant has 7,283 health.


Unbuffed Templar on the PTS with the same gear has 13,304 health. As you can see, the same Giant on the PTS has 52,434 health.



So the Templar's health is multiplied by roughly 7.3
While the Giant's health is only multiplied by roughly 7.2

As you can see, it's a pretty damned even conversion.
If anything, the Giant has slightly less of a modifier than the Templar.

So in regards to health conversion anyways, I don't see any kind of nerf. DPS/Mitigation/healing are entirely different tests and please contribute any results you may have with solid data here for discussion.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Yes, but enable Radiant Aura and tell us you're as effective on PTS as live.

The nerfs are all in the buffs and weapon attribute like crit., basic stats aren't the issue as I see it right now.

Joejudas

so posting about a gaints health means it not a nerf....you want me to post video of my 60 percent dps nerf...or my armor thats nerfed....and my weapon dmg thats nerfed....i can if you want. but if you logged into the pts you would already know that

Alphashado

Joejudas wrote: »

so posting about a gaints health means it not a nerf....this post is completely irrelevant

Please prove otherwise then. All I see are a bunch of people screaming and crying and throwing a temper tantrum all based on rumor and speculation. Yes, some skills were nerfed. Other skills were buffed. That does not equal a blanket nerf. It's easy for you and people like you to come here and rant and rave about this and that.

The only thing anyone can do is give examples of how some skills were nerfed. There are just as many examples of how some skills were buffed.

So if the best thing you can come up with is "X skill isn't as good as it used to be", then you are gonna have to do better than that if you want people to take you seriously.

People please stop stampeding like wild sheep and PROVE something to back up the hysteria.

Alphashado

Joejudas wrote: »

so posting about a gaints health means it not a nerf....you want me to post video of my 60 percent dps nerf...or my armor thats nerfed....and my weapon dmg thats nerfed....i can if you want. but if you logged into the pts you would already know that

Ok. Well sir there is nothing else I can do. You have been given every opportunity to prove to this community that you can do something besides scream FIRE in a crowded room. Now you will go on my ignore list and I will enjoy life that much more for putting you there.

Mos-De-Atmo

Perhaps what has happened is a global rebalancing, like they said they did, which may result in lower stats like lower damage however due to the global nature of the change people are still as powerful relative to everything else in ESO.

So while you may have much less Spell Damage and do much less damage with your abilities, Health has also reduced and you can slay the same things as the live server.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if everything in the game is reduced or changed then everyone is still as powerful as they were relative to each other and to enemies. It is not like just our characters were reduced. So was everything else in ESO.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Alphashado wrote: »

Please prove otherwise then. All I see are a bunch of people screaming and crying and throwing a temper tantrum all based on rumor and speculation. Yes, some skills were nerfed. Other skills were buffed. That does not equal a blanket nerf. It's easy for you and people like you to come here and rant and rave about this and that.

There have been several very well argued, fact-full posts from Templars and others showing how this update which ZOS claimed was to "buff weaker skills and not nerfs" are at times huge nerfs-to-the-ground .. Radiant Aura is clearly now worthless and builds based on use it are seriously if not fatally undermined.

Also, you didn't address what I said about what I see as your totally worthless posting of static numbers, YOU show some facts that the skill nerfs don't affect your performance against that giant, or anything else come to that, before dissing others' fact-full experiences, then maybe your PoV will have some credibility.

Drasn

Alphashado wrote: »

We all understand there is some concern about 1.6 being a blanket nerf. Understandably so, people are focused on stat reductions veiled by the overall increase. However I am interested in facts, not rumor or speculation. This is just one small test that I conducted to compare health on both me and the same mob on live vs PTS (1.6)

Please feel free to offer similar comparisons with data to back up your claims. We all know that there are nerfs in 1.6 We all know that some skills were substantially buffed in 1.6 What we don't know is how the Environment was changed to match us.

Here is a small comparison I just did:

I opened both the live version and the PTS. I logged into the same character (V14 Templar), removed all buffs including food. He is wearing the exact same gear in both versions. One is using thief mundis, the other is using shadow. Neither contribute to health. There are no pts in the Champion tree on the PTS Templar that added any health. So this conversion is w/o any CP influence.

I went to the same Giant encampment in Eastmarch and parked both versions of my Templar in front of the same Giant.

Unbuffed Templar on the live version has 1,833 health. As you can see, the Giant has 7,283 health.


Unbuffed Templar on the PTS with the same gear has 13,304 health. As you can see, the same Giant on the PTS has 52,434 health.



So the Templar's health is multiplied by roughly 7.3
While the Giant's health is only multiplied by roughly 7.2

As you can see, it's a pretty damned even conversion.
If anything, the Giant has slightly less of a modifier than the Templar.

So in regards to health conversion anyways, I don't see any kind of nerf. DPS/Mitigation/healing are entirely different tests and please contribute any results you may have with solid data here for discussion.

And this is why they did the conversion to larger numbers, so that people see a bigger number and go "WOW, I've got more numbers," and end up missing what actually happened. Good thing other people have broken down why its a massive nerf across the board, now if you could only figure out how to use a search function and comprehend.

Alphashado

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Please prove otherwise then. All I see are a bunch of people screaming and crying and throwing a temper tantrum all based on rumor and speculation. Yes, some skills were nerfed. Other skills were buffed. That does not equal a blanket nerf. It's easy for you and people like you to come here and rant and rave about this and that.

There have been several very well argued, fact-full posts from Templars and others showing how this update which ZOS claimed was to "buff weaker skills and not nerfs" are at times huge nerfs-to-the-ground .. Radiant Aura is clearly now worthless and builds based on use it are seriously if not fatally undermined.

So that equates to a blanket nerf? Because I was just watching a video today of a Templar absolutely destroying everything it came across. Yes Radiant Aura was nerfed. Yes I understand that probably sucks for those who are used to using it. But that doesn't mean the entire class was nerfed. There are already videos everywhere with Templars kickin arse. For every skill that was nerfed, there was another that was buffed.

Certain builds will have to be changed/altered. Does that mean everything was nerfed? No Does that mean guilds will fail at AA? No. Does that mean templars will get Pwned in PvP? No, go watch a video on it. It's quite the opposite actually.

You can insult me and call my test worthless if you like. I clearly stated it was a comparison of mob health to our health only. What I find worthless is all this mass hysteria crying that the entire 1.6 patch is a giant nerf when in fact it only nerfed a few skills and builds. And for each build that was nerfed, there is one to replace it now that is as powerful or more powerful.

As exampled here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nECEhg8zeE

And here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtjRDpq-VUU

And that is only Templars because that's the example you used to demonstrate this giant nerf.

Alphashado

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

We all understand there is some concern about 1.6 being a blanket nerf. Understandably so, people are focused on stat reductions veiled by the overall increase. However I am interested in facts, not rumor or speculation. This is just one small test that I conducted to compare health on both me and the same mob on live vs PTS (1.6)

Please feel free to offer similar comparisons with data to back up your claims. We all know that there are nerfs in 1.6 We all know that some skills were substantially buffed in 1.6 What we don't know is how the Environment was changed to match us.

Here is a small comparison I just did:

I opened both the live version and the PTS. I logged into the same character (V14 Templar), removed all buffs including food. He is wearing the exact same gear in both versions. One is using thief mundis, the other is using shadow. Neither contribute to health. There are no pts in the Champion tree on the PTS Templar that added any health. So this conversion is w/o any CP influence.

I went to the same Giant encampment in Eastmarch and parked both versions of my Templar in front of the same Giant.

Unbuffed Templar on the live version has 1,833 health. As you can see, the Giant has 7,283 health.


Unbuffed Templar on the PTS with the same gear has 13,304 health. As you can see, the same Giant on the PTS has 52,434 health.



So the Templar's health is multiplied by roughly 7.3
While the Giant's health is only multiplied by roughly 7.2

As you can see, it's a pretty damned even conversion.
If anything, the Giant has slightly less of a modifier than the Templar.

So in regards to health conversion anyways, I don't see any kind of nerf. DPS/Mitigation/healing are entirely different tests and please contribute any results you may have with solid data here for discussion.

And this is why they did the conversion to larger numbers, so that people see a bigger number and go "WOW, I've got more numbers," and end up missing what actually happened. Good thing other people have broken down why its a massive nerf across the board, now if you could only figure out how to use a search function and comprehend.

It isn't about the size of the numbers. It's about the modifiers used. The conversion did nothing to make mobs any harder to kill. THAT is my point. But you guys are so stuck on the fact that a couple singular things were nerfed that you fail to grasp it.

Joejudas

posting a video from one of the games biggest fanboys( even though hes a cool dude) and one of the games biggest a holes in fearturbo isnt proof of anything.

Alphashado

Joejudas wrote: »

posting a video from one of the games biggest fanboys( even though hes a cool dude) and one of the games biggest a holes in fearturbo isnt proof of anything.

You are wrong. As usual. It proves that new Templar builds are destroying content. 10-12k dps is outstanding for a Templar. There are many people saying that if 1.6 goes live without changing a few of the Templar skills, that it very well may be top dps.

Templars were used as an example of some gigantic blanket nerf so I supplied a couple videos of new Templar builds that are wrecking everything they come across. Of course you ignore it.

And you wonder why people are calling you a Troll.

Joejudas

lol claiming your temp can do dps makes me a troll..lol ok. they still nerfed all the armor and stats...so its irrelvant how much dps your temp can do.

Joejudas

so why didnt you post the video of the break down of the multiplies for the weapon and spell damage, or the crit...or the armor...o wait you didnt...cause it got nerfed.

Joejudas

thats what a nerf looks like. that 1.6 gear...and its nerfed...all the end game gear looks like that

Valencer

No offense, Joejudas, but it really sounds like you're upset your Dragonknight got nerfed and you're using the trials gear changes to channel your anger.

That nerf looks terrible, but they've obviously changed a lot about crit gains throughout the entire game. (a base crit chance, for one).

Due to the crit chance changes, it seems trials gear is now no longer as good compared to normal crafted sets, and I agree that's terrible. They should totally fix that, but maybe not by reverting the crit chance buffs back. Instead, they could look at adding some new strong bonuses to the set. Would you agree with that?

Nihil

People fear change, and the greater the change and uncertainties the greater the fear. There was a lot changed for this update and it does make it harder to tell how things are now in comparison to live, but with that it has been out a relatively short time for us to truly see the impact of these changes.

One of the big concerns that I have seen has been the reallocation of stats, and (I think) the buff system. With the buff system in place it has caused a lot of confliction amongst skills, this can look like a huge nerf as it makes it harder to achieve the values we were use to in the past ( high crit: stacking potions, mage light, exploitation (sorcs) or other abilities that were modified) and thus we are seeing lower numbers then what we are use to. But with these changes we have also seen some re balancing that has gone into it. Players are now able to achieve higher crit damage multiplier then before, or we start off at a higher crit rate (base 10) and thus they felt they needed to lower our stats else where ( thus could possible be the reason why armor has 2 % crit).

There were definitely some skills that were hit hard (imo Sparks others will definitely disagree as it did gain utility in boss fights, I just liked it in pvp as it was), while some were hit harder and needed it (crit surge, and this is coming from a crit build stamina sorc) as these skills could trivialize some content requiring little planning or regards.

In general, we just need more time to compare, some skills should probably be changed one way or another as they are currently in PTS, some skills need an increase to their costs (funnel health comes to mind, I think it was 700 ish magicka unmodified and when we can reach 1.8k + magicka regen that is pretty cheap) others might need to be buffed / weakened but that is why we have a pts after all. But I do agree that so far it hasn't seemed like a blanket nerf, but I can also see how some people would feel like they were slapped in the face, specially when it comes to their armor ( although we did know that they were going to be rebalancing armor for months now).

Alphashado

Joejudas wrote: »

thats what a nerf looks like. that 1.6 gear...and its nerfed...all the end game gear looks like that

What you seem to be blatantly unable to comprehend is that none of that matters if you can still dish out the same (modified) DPS. Allow me to simplify it for you so that you can stand at least a tiny chance of understanding.


Live version - Big ugly dungeon boss dies in 60 seconds.

Big meanies at ZoS make evil conversion in 1.6

1.6 version - Big ugly dungeon boss still dies in 60 seconds.

Excuse me if that sounds patronizing, but man you bring out the best in people.

Joejudas

so we tested trials bosses...and they dont die in 60 secs like you claim. and you cant dish out the same dps...as you yourself just said...because its modified. its cool you decided to find the one build in the whole game that kills adds quickly and claim that its not a blanket nerf for the whole game. cause it is. i forgot though you dont care about the end game folks who put all the time in. we dont matter to you

Sharee

Joejudas wrote: »

thats what a nerf looks like. that 1.6 gear...and its nerfed...all the end game gear looks like that

I think the point of the OP is that if you nerf damage by 50% while also nerfing target hp by 50% then overall it is not a nerf because you are still able to kill the same target in the same time.

So just posting a screenshot comparison of the old and new gear and saying "Look, 50% weaker, it's a nerf!" does not take the whole picture into account.

Rologue

Joejudas wrote: »

so we tested trials bosses...and they dont die in 60 secs like you claim. and you cant dish out the same dps...as you yourself just said...because its modified. its cool you decided to find the one build in the whole game that kills adds quickly and claim that its not a blanket nerf for the whole game. cause it is. i forgot though you dont care about the end game folks who put all the time in. we dont matter to you

I think the real problem is that the game is no longer exclusive for skirts and staved dks. Even if there was a so called "blanket nerf", I don't see how that would be truly a problem. Would only need to adapt and use your head more, rather than roll a DK, then face bashing keyboard at random intervals.
What was I told not 8 months ago when my Nightblade was extremely broke? Oh, right... This is clearly a L2P issue.
Don't worry though, there will be a build guide sooner or later for you copy/paste and you will have your godmother back. Cya when that gets nerfs too! (cause I am sure u will be back here whining about how your leet CNTRL + V skills were nerfed)

SFBryan18

People complained VR was too hard, so they nerfed it. Then people complain that they nerf it too much, but when it appears that the game will get a little harder, they complain some more. As long as the game is fair in PvP, I don't really care how hard PvE is.

Rologue

SFBryan18 wrote: »

People complained VR was too hard, so they nerfed it. Then people complain that they nerf it too much, but when it appears that the game will get a little harder, they complain some more. As long as the game is fair in PvP, I don't really care how hard PvE is.

I don't give argonian craps about pve either, however it doesn't entitle me to all the fairness either. Classes need to be fairly balanced in both instances, or there will be lopsided amounts of classes, like now... I finish DK quests really fast, but the sorc pop has dropped quite substantially, which is weird, cuz more sorcs I have in my group, the better.

SFBryan18

Rologue wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

People complained VR was too hard, so they nerfed it. Then people complain that they nerf it too much, but when it appears that the game will get a little harder, they complain some more. As long as the game is fair in PvP, I don't really care how hard PvE is.

I don't give argonian craps about pve either, however it doesn't entitle me to all the fairness either. Classes need to be fairly balanced in both instances, or there will be lopsided amounts of classes, like now... I finish DK quests really fast, but the sorc pop has dropped quite substantially, which is weird, cuz more sorcs I have in my group, the better.

I thought this was about a universal nerf to all classes. I want all classes to be fair too.

Spiritreaver_ESO

Some are jumping on the OP for only showing a comparison of a fairly static stat like max HP for his character and a mob. I don't see the problem. He acknowledged that his test was simple compared to tests of things like healing %'s, damage mitigation, buffs, etc, and then went so far as ask others to post their findings as well.

Seems like a fairly decent OP and a chance to get some actual figures to go along with speculation for AND against the CS. I for one would like to see some data from others and some real discussion take place.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Joejudas wrote: »

thats what a nerf looks like. that 1.6 gear...and its nerfed...all the end game gear looks like that

Can you still kill things as quickly after your so-called 'nerf' than before-hand, if the answer is 'yes' it's entirely NOT a nerf.

You have yet to provide any 'proof' that your character's performance has suffered in their ability to tackle content, the stats on gear is one piece of a jigsaw, not the entire puzzle!

nerevarine1138

I love that "Builds based around one specific skill are no longer as effective," becomes "They've nerfed us to the ground!"

They're changing up the skills. If you refuse to alter your bars based on that, that's an issue with you, not with the game.

Joejudas

Pulling 1.4k dps on the live server and pulling 7k on the live server is a nerf. Nothing anyone does or says would prove to you that ZOS did anything wrong though....because the sign your pay check. It's ok though.

nerevarine1138

Joejudas wrote: »

Pulling 1.4k dps on the live server and pulling 7k on the live server is a nerf. Nothing anyone does or says would prove to you that ZOS did anything wrong though....because the sign your pay check. It's ok though.

Have you tried changing up your actionbars instead of complaining that the exact same abilities aren't as effective as they used to be in combination?

I know that my bars look different now, and I'm pretty sure it's because I read the descriptions of my new abilities and started to figure out which ones are better-suited for my playstyle.

Joejudas

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

Pulling 1.4k dps on the live server and pulling 7k on the live server is a nerf. Nothing anyone does or says would prove to you that ZOS did anything wrong though....because the sign your pay check. It's ok though.

Have you tried changing up your actionbars instead of complaining that the exact same abilities aren't as effective as they used to be in combination?

I know that my bars look different now, and I'm pretty sure it's because I read the descriptions of my new abilities and started to figure out which ones are better-suited for my playstyle.

Since your the expert....what's your best SO clear time...since you think I know so little about how dps rotations work ?

nerevarine1138

Joejudas wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

Pulling 1.4k dps on the live server and pulling 7k on the live server is a nerf. Nothing anyone does or says would prove to you that ZOS did anything wrong though....because the sign your pay check. It's ok though.

Have you tried changing up your actionbars instead of complaining that the exact same abilities aren't as effective as they used to be in combination?

I know that my bars look different now, and I'm pretty sure it's because I read the descriptions of my new abilities and started to figure out which ones are better-suited for my playstyle.

Since your the expert....what's your best SO clear time...since you think I know so little about how dps rotations work ?

Actually, I haven't had the time to hit SO yet, but I'm hoping to do it before 1.6 lands. I have one of those pesky "job" things that prevents me from being on at the times most people are raiding.

Of course, if you want the entire game to be built for the "hardcore" players, then you're asking ZO to ignore 95% of the playerbase. That sounds like bad business to me, but maybe you can explain how they can maintain a game that only you and your elitist friends play.