Welcome to TESO have a nice an beautifull day 8)

TehMagnus

Edit 10/01/15 after the post in here:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/145544/feedback-to-the-champion-system

I must admit I didn't believe Zenimax would change their mind nor listen to the people who found the 30CP implementation to be unfair, In my mind, the 30CP for everybody corresponded to a certain vision of the game that I thought the business had and that I was afraid of.

ZOS proved me wrong, proved many of us wrong, and also proved they do listen to everybody's concerns including dedicated players and I'm grateful for it and truly apologize to the mods & community managers who had to take the heat in the forums.

Regarding the new system, they went even further that what would have been, in my opinion, acceptable, and implemented a 100% fair system beyond anything I actually hoped it would be.

I would like to thank Zenimax for listening, and thanks to everybody who showed support and also everybody who pitched in to comment regardless of their opinion on the matter.

===============================================================

Welcome to the latest episode of the famous miniseries of: "Stop playing this game so much, being a loyal customer and giving us money since we will keep finding ways to [snip] you over".

After our first two successful episodes:

- New armor sets (1.3): When Zenimax skillfully changed all the most popular armor sets making most of them useless: If you had legendary armor that just became worthless: buck it .
- The Undaunted Noob Enhancer(1.5) : When someone thought it was a good idea not to award people for their Achievements in regards of undaunted skill line XP. Got all Achievements already? Can't level up the undaunted skill line? No problem braaa, you'll just have to do the dailies to get to max level while people who haven't done any achievement get it in two days. Because that's fairness

Zenimax Online Studios now brings to their prefered console beta testers:
-Champion points XP tracking? We lied, what you gonna do?

A delightful new episode in the series franchise where once again, people who trusted Zenimax, people who listened to the comunity managers, people who believe in fairness, get once again [sniped] in their [sniping] [snips] while noobs and people who don't play the game get special treatment and faster advancement possibilities.

You haven't been subbed to the game since day one? You have been cheating on TESO with other single player (yuck) games? You haven't been loging in every single day to play? The game has bored you so much that you haven't even reached max level in 8 months? FEAR NOT! The Zenimax commie machine is here to help you and give you outrageous advantages over the people who have been loyal to the game since beta, who have been playing non stop and who made the terrrrrrrrible mistake of believing Zenimax would ever implement a fair system in one of their game changing releases .

This new episode of the saga will be sure to contain legendary proportions of: epic rage, epic "we don't give a flying fart about our community" and most of all (but not the least) we will comment on your posts where you ask us questions we don't answer to tell you to ask those questions in a more Civil way.

Welcome to the latest episode of "The Elder Commies Online", where you don't need to work hard to be on the same level of people who do and if you do work hard, you don't get any reward out of it. Be sure to tell your friends about it .

=========================
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/143784/champion-system-clarification

After reading what was stated above, the answer that has been burning the forums through the weekend has been answered:

As long as you have 1 char VR1 in your account, you will get credited 30CP. Nothing more, nothing less.

So this means that after lying to us in order to keep people playing the game instead of unsubing and waiting for Champion System, Zenimax has done it again, giving the middle finger to the people that have been the most invested in the game and favoring the people who haven't.

Thank you Zenimax for this Xmass present, just made my day.

It's not like you could have awarded points from 20 to 100, giving 20 to the players who had nothing (and don't even deserve those 20 points), and capping to 100 the number of points to give to people who listened to you and kept playing their VR characters so that they feel rewarded fo

Edit: To all the people wondering where ZOS said they would track the XP and reward accordingly:

ZOS_MariaAliprando wrote: »

Greetings! I am Maria Aliprando, Gameplay Designer on the Champion System.

Should players that are VR1+ still work towards VR12 or should they just wait until the new changes.
Continue to play! We are tracking your XP as you advance your way through Veteran Ranks and even past VR14. When the Champion System comes out we will reward you points right away based on the amount of XP you have earned up to a cap. In general, most people won’t reach the cap and we do not know what that cap is yet. We're still working out that value and making sure to take a look at the XP you all are earning.

Etori

Oh hey! Stuff that hasn't been talked about before!

I would imagine there are far more casual gamers than power gamers. When politicians try and get as many votes as possible who do they target? The largest demographic (ie not the top 1%)

TehMagnus

Etori wrote: »

Oh hey! Stuff that hasn't been talked about before!

I would imagine there are far more casual gamers than power gamers. When politicians try and get as many votes as possible who do they target? The largest demographic (ie not the top 1%)

Except the people who are VR14 are the ones that have given them the most money and usually politicians tend to listen to the people that finance their campaigns, especially in countries like the US.

Edit: Oh and people who are casual gamers(and aren't VR14) don't care about being as powerful as raiders and would proly welcome the free CP points they don't even deserve, so I don't see how giving to each it's own would make people unhappy.

Lynx7386

Everyone is a drama queen online.

Stop complaining.

DDuke

Couldn't agree more (except with the new armour sets in 1.3 thingy, those were so ridiculously easy to get that it wasn't really a big deal).

Zenimax, you have ruined our Christmas!

Rune_Relic

Rune_Relic wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

As many of you know, the Champion System is designed to be a replacement for the Veteran System. Internally, we have been implementing and testing the Champion System for the last few months. During that iteration time we’ve learned a lot. This changed some of our intended launch goals for the system. Specifically of concern is the number of Champion Points earned before the system launches. Here are four of the most salient points with regards to the number of Champion Points earned when we launch phase 3 with Update 6 and the reasons for the change:

1. The system needs to be integrated in phases, leaving the Veteran Ranks in place for phase 3.
   
   Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.
   
   
2. The system should give more value for each point spent than originally conceived.
   
   A second thing we learned is that each Champion Point needs to have more impact on the stats it is altering than originally planned. This came up frequently in our internal feedback sessions. Responding to that feedback, we decreased the number of overall points in the system (14,400 to 3,600), but kept the range of what they could alter the same. Because each point is more valuable there are less points overall in the system. Thus we can’t give out as many points with the introduction of the system as originally believed.
   
   
3. The system has to account for relative power values of the game.
   
   We had to start narrowing down on the variables for our content in the game. Because we are changing many of the abilities and base factors in the gameplay, we needed to start with less of a variance in player power to achieve a good introduction of the system. Or more simply, the more points we give out now, the harder it is to find a good place between various balance points: PvP, overland content, Veteran Content, Craglorn, Dungeons, Trials, etc…
   
   
4. The system shouldn’t separate players more.
   
   This is pretty self-explanatory, and is related to the first point. While the system is meant to have built in safeguards against players pulling away from each other too dramatically – those systems aren’t in currently. A 1-to-1 XP conversion to Champion XP was too dramatic.

Also, when phase 3 of the Champion System goes live with Update 6, all accounts that have at least one Veteran Rank character on them will automatically receive 30 Champion Points. These 30 Champion Points, though applied to your account, are distributed in full to each individual character on your account, just as Champion Points you earn are. So, if you have 5 characters, at least one of which is Veteran Rank 1 or higher, all five of those characters will have 30 CP to spend. You will not be awarded more Champion Points for having five Veteran Characters versus just one. You will also be able to begin earning Champion Points on any Veteran Rank character from that point forward.

We feel confident that our current solution is better for the enjoyment of the game overall than our originally announced design. This comes from weeks of testing the system. While iterating on solutions and changing the design is a normal and necessary part of the game making process, we definitely understand how changes to a system like this can be frustrating and seem to come from nowhere.

That said, we’re going to continue to be open about our plans and designs for the future of ESO. While a change in development like this can be frustrating, it isn’t a reason for us to not communicate. We never intend to mislead, but sometimes even our best ideas just don’t work out once they get into the game. We feel the Champion System is still going to be a fun way for you to keep customizing your character to suit your tastes and specializing in ways that make you unique. We’re looking forward to you giving it a trial run on the PTS, and sending us your feedback.

EVERYBODY L2R!
I Have highlighted everything you need to clear this mess up.
PHASE 4 - is when Vet ranks get eliminated.
Enough of the QQ.

Slurg

magnusnet wrote: »

Etori wrote: »

Oh hey! Stuff that hasn't been talked about before!

I would imagine there are far more casual gamers than power gamers. When politicians try and get as many votes as possible who do they target? The largest demographic (ie not the top 1%)

Except the people who are VR14 are the ones that have given them the most money and usually politicians tend to listen to the people that finance their campaigns, especially in countries like the US.

I'd bet there are more casual players and our subscriptions cost the same as the power gamers.

The difference is the casual gamers tend to be less vocal because every time they speak up with a different opinion some elite V14 is right there screaming STFU noob L2P!

Kheoss

magnusnet wrote: »

Etori wrote: »

Oh hey! Stuff that hasn't been talked about before!

I would imagine there are far more casual gamers than power gamers. When politicians try and get as many votes as possible who do they target? The largest demographic (ie not the top 1%)

Except the people who are VR14 are the ones that have given them the most money and usually politicians tend to listen to the people that finance their campaigns, especially in countries like the US.

Edit: Oh and people who are casual gamers don't care about being as powerful as raiders and would proly welcome the free CP points they don't even deserve, so I don't see how giving to each it's own would make people unhappy.

Lol how would you even think just because VR14 are the people giving most money, I know many that hit that and left game. Not to mention I'm not vr14 yet, bought the Collectors Edition and the Digital Collectors edition, and have not been unsubbed. So that philosophy is just as flawed as most politicians campaigns.

Rook_Master

I can't help but laugh at all the people who trusted Zenimax to accurately track XP after V14 like they promised.

Undaunted XP could be traced right there in the achievements and they still managed to botch that, for god sakes'.

Good thing I stopped playing as soon as I hit V14, maybe I should come back when 1.6 drops, since we'll all be even.

Kraen

OP, you are of course right. But asking for understanding on forums is like asking for understanding in cage full of apes.

You will probably get messages like "QQ moar" and "drama queen", even tho your arguments are completely valid.

Dont be discouraged by that, I believe you have support of majority of players, because majority of us are actually negatively affected by Champion System changes.

Kalman

magnusnet wrote: »

Except the people who are VR14 are the ones that have given them the most money

You are quite wrong. There are plenty of people who don't have VR14s that have been around since launch. I have a several friends that still have a sub but haven't played in 4 months or so. They actually make the most money on people who pay for a sub and don't use it. The more you play the less money they make from you.

Dazin93

Etori wrote: »

Oh hey! Stuff that hasn't been talked about before!

I would imagine there are far more casual gamers than power gamers. When politicians try and get as many votes as possible who do they target? The largest demographic (ie not the top 1%)

Why do you think only power gamers are effected by these decisions? I am a casual player and I am not happy to be told that all the experience I have gained on my VR14 will not be tracked and counted for progression upon release of the champion system as ZoS explicitly stated it would.

I am not happy to know that anything I do on my character until 1.6 is meaningless and may actually hurt my character progression in the short and long term.

As a casual gamer my time in game is just as precious, if not more, than power gamers and it takes efficiency to be able to enjoy some end game content as a casual player.

Unfortunately, it seems the most efficient way to progress a maxed character is to not play it at all and let the enlightenment points roll in. If I am not playing, what am I paying money for?

tplink3r1

"The Elder Commies Online"
good to know im not the only one who thought that.

Lynx7386

Except the people who are VR14 are the ones that have given them the most money and usually politicians tend to listen to the people that finance their campaigns, especially in countries like the US.

This is not accurate.

I have been playing since early access, which means I have given zos as much money as any other player. I do not have a v14 character yet because I split my time between every class (and because I have a job and a wife that are more important than a game).

If we're going strictly off of money, here, I have just as much right to those 30 champion points that any v14 does.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]

Apokh

Can you ppl (especially the OP) please link the source for Statement that
the progression from VR1-14 is completely lost and will not be converted to CP?

What I read is, that if you have AT LEAST one VR Char you get INITIAL 30CP. Where is the statement, that you won´t EVER get your progress converted? Need this info pls.

Thanks in advance...

Etori

Dazin93 wrote: »

Etori wrote: »

Oh hey! Stuff that hasn't been talked about before!

I would imagine there are far more casual gamers than power gamers. When politicians try and get as many votes as possible who do they target? The largest demographic (ie not the top 1%)

Why do you think only power gamers are effected by these decisions? I am a casual player and I am not happy to be told that all the experience I have gained on my VR14 will not be tracked and counted for progression upon release of the champion system as ZoS explicitly stated it would.

I am not happy to know that anything I do on my character until 1.6 is meaningless and may actually hurt my character progression in the short and long term.

As a casual gamer my time in game is just as precious, if not more, than power gamers and it takes efficiency to be able to enjoy some end game content as a casual player.

Unfortunately, it seems the most efficient way to progress a maxed character is to not play it at all and let the enlightenment points roll in. If I am not playing, what am I paying money for?

Nobody ever said that casual gamers wouldn't be affected. It's not like the 99% all agree on one thing, and the 1% all agree on the opposite.

People are raging over something that hasn't even been finalized. I mean it is Christmas. Be happy. When the official patch notes drop down *** then if you don't like what you see, and maybe they'll change things if there is enough outrage.

I myself could very well be ticked off at what 1.6 entails, but I see no point in whining like a teenage girl who just got her heart broke because she saw her boyfriend talking to another girl.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Kalman wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Except the people who are VR14 are the ones that have given them the most money

You are quite wrong. There are plenty of people who don't have VR14s that have been around since launch. I have a several friends that still have a sub but haven't played in 4 months or so. They actually make the most money on people who pay for a sub and don't use it. The more you play the less money they make from you.

Explain this logic please. Because they get the same amount of money whether you log in or not. How do they make more from people not logging in exactly?

AlnilamE

magnusnet wrote: »

After our first two successful episodes:

- New armor sets (1.3): When Zenimax skillfully changed all the most popular armor sets making most of them useless: If you had legendary armor that just became worthless: buck it .

Because everybody running around in the same two crafted sets doesn't mean something is unbalanced.

Welcome to the latest episode of "The Elder Commies Online", where you don't need to work hard to be on the same level of people who do and if you do work hard, you don't get any reward out of it. Be sure to tell your friends about it .

And here you lost your argument. Have a nice day.

BBSooner

Ugh, the tears. New content didn't reward you for experience gained before it was released. So? When the level cap increases I expect all of you people to be horrified and whining that experience gained at level cap didn't roll over and auto level you.

Slurg

One obvious answer: they don't have to hire as many customer support people if their customers don't need support because they aren't logging in.

kieso

If you enjoy playing that much that alone should be your reward, problem fixed!

eliisra

Slurg wrote: »

I'd bet there are more casual players and our subscriptions cost the same as the power gamers.

The difference is the casual gamers tend to be less vocal because every time they speak up with a different opinion some elite V14 is right there screaming STFU noob L2P!

I would expect most loyal subscribers to have at least one VR12-14 by now and some alts. So I really don't get this casual v.s power gamer drama. It affects everyone that played the game for a while, regardless if your activities in-game are casual or more endgame focused.

Making long-term loyal users happy, should be important. That's my opinion. Not bending promises to please the guys that bought the game of Steam few weeks ago.

But in all fairness I don't think this is a big deal. The "power-gamer" will grind CP like mad anyway, he or she will be ahead in points after a few hours.

Dazin93

EVERYBODY L2R!
I Have highlighted everything you need to clear this mess up.
PHASE 4 - is when Vet ranks get eliminated.
Enough of the QQ.

Maybe you should learn to read instead of spamming this nonsense on at least 4-5 threads now. ZoS explicitly stated in October that our post VR14 experience was being tracked and that we would get compensated for that experience up to a certain cap when the champion system is implemented.

Fact: 1.6 is when the champion system is being implemented and we are not being compensated.
Fact: 30 CP's for anyone who has one VR1 character is not a cap, it's a flat rate.
Fact: Phase 4 and the eventual removal of Vet ranks has nothing to do with ZoS' original promise/statement.

Apokh

Dazin93 wrote: »

and we are not being compensated.

Where did you read this?

TehMagnus

magnusnet wrote: »

Etori wrote: »

Oh hey! Stuff that hasn't been talked about before!

I would imagine there are far more casual gamers than power gamers. When politicians try and get as many votes as possible who do they target? The largest demographic (ie not the top 1%)

Except the people who are VR14 are the ones that have given them the most money and usually politicians tend to listen to the people that finance their campaigns, especially in countries like the US.

Apokh wrote: »

Can you ppl (especially the OP) please link the source for Statement that
the progression from VR1-14 is completely lost and will not be converted to CP?

What I read is, that if you have AT LEAST one VR Char you get INITIAL 30CP. Where is the statement, that you won´t EVER get your progress converted? Need this info pls.

Thanks in advance...

The moment update 6 hits and you get 30 CP, you'll start earning more points. So when VR is completely removed, they wont give you even more CP. Seing what they've done up until now, if you think that they will, you're sadly delusional.

Regarding people who aren't even VR14 yet and have been subbed since game launch:

You obviously don't care about VR14 players, raiding etc else you'd be there competing, so what do you care if other players get more CP than you? especially if you take into account the fact that as soon as you continue leveling to VR14 you'll earn CP much faster than people who are already VR14 and without needing to grind. Please stop being selfish and think about the people who enjoy the game differently than you, who have invested time towards a goal, and who get brought down by an unfair system that only favors you.

AlnilamE

Fact: When ZOS made those statements, there were almost 15000 CP to be earned. There are now under 4000.

Do you want to go back to 15000 CP?

TehMagnus

Etori wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

Etori wrote: »

Oh hey! Stuff that hasn't been talked about before!

I would imagine there are far more casual gamers than power gamers. When politicians try and get as many votes as possible who do they target? The largest demographic (ie not the top 1%)

Why do you think only power gamers are effected by these decisions? I am a casual player and I am not happy to be told that all the experience I have gained on my VR14 will not be tracked and counted for progression upon release of the champion system as ZoS explicitly stated it would.

I am not happy to know that anything I do on my character until 1.6 is meaningless and may actually hurt my character progression in the short and long term.

As a casual gamer my time in game is just as precious, if not more, than power gamers and it takes efficiency to be able to enjoy some end game content as a casual player.

Unfortunately, it seems the most efficient way to progress a maxed character is to not play it at all and let the enlightenment points roll in. If I am not playing, what am I paying money for?

Nobody ever said that casual gamers wouldn't be affected. It's not like the 99% all agree on one thing, and the 1% all agree on the opposite.

People are raging over something that hasn't even been finalized. I mean it is Christmas. Be happy. When the official patch notes drop down *** then if you don't like what you see, and maybe they'll change things if there is enough outrage.

I myself could very well be ticked off at what 1.6 entails, but I see no point in whining like a teenage girl who just got her heart broke because she saw her boyfriend talking to another girl.

When official patch notes drop down it will be too late to change anything. When have you ever seen ZOS change a game mechanic between PTS & live? They adjust stuff, but never change it, especially when it's come to this kind of changes.

Dazin93

Etori wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

Etori wrote: »

Oh hey! Stuff that hasn't been talked about before!

I would imagine there are far more casual gamers than power gamers. When politicians try and get as many votes as possible who do they target? The largest demographic (ie not the top 1%)

Why do you think only power gamers are effected by these decisions? I am a casual player and I am not happy to be told that all the experience I have gained on my VR14 will not be tracked and counted for progression upon release of the champion system as ZoS explicitly stated it would.

I am not happy to know that anything I do on my character until 1.6 is meaningless and may actually hurt my character progression in the short and long term.

As a casual gamer my time in game is just as precious, if not more, than power gamers and it takes efficiency to be able to enjoy some end game content as a casual player.

Unfortunately, it seems the most efficient way to progress a maxed character is to not play it at all and let the enlightenment points roll in. If I am not playing, what am I paying money for?

Nobody ever said that casual gamers wouldn't be affected. It's not like the 99% all agree on one thing, and the 1% all agree on the opposite.

People are raging over something that hasn't even been finalized. I mean it is Christmas. Be happy. When the official patch notes drop down *** then if you don't like what you see, and maybe they'll change things if there is enough outrage.

I myself could very well be ticked off at what 1.6 entails, but I see no point in whining like a teenage girl who just got her heart broke because she saw her boyfriend talking to another girl.

The award of a flat rate of CP's has been finalized unless ZoS starts listening to their paying customers and changes their stance. Perhaps you consider it raging, but I view it as customers providing feedback to ZoS and they have stated many times that they want that feedback.

If you don't agree that's fine, but there is no need for condensing remarks or random Twilight metaphors.

Apokh

magnusnet wrote: »

Seing what they've done up until now, if you think that they will, you're sadly delusional.

So at least one person has the "Staff of thruth"

xaraan

Etori wrote: »

Oh hey! Stuff that hasn't been talked about before!

I would imagine there are far more casual gamers than power gamers. When politicians try and get as many votes as possible who do they target? The largest demographic (ie not the top 1%)

1. If the % of players that will be ahead is so small, then why such a big deal to let that small percentage be ahead (even a little)?

2. If the system they created has diminishing returns built into it for that issue anyway, then again... why such a big deal to let that small percentage be a little ahead?

3. If a player is primarily a quester, they have less content available to complete than a v1 because they've completed the silver/gold already and no matter what zos has said about "giving equal xp for other activities" there is nothing for a quester (not grinder or pvpr) than can earn as many points for as consistent amount of time as doing silver/gold.

4. If they are, once again, taking away something from people that have played more, then what's the point of advancing? How do we know it won't happen again in the future when a year from now they want to lure new customers in and decide to again 'reset' their old customers for some other patch reason?

5. Last, it's just fair. Someone that plays more and gets more xp should be ahead. (Guys that are v14 have earned millions of xp already). Games should be fun right? Everyone says that's the most important thing... Well, when games are not fair and the rules change half way through - that often isn't fair. They don't tell the winning team at half time they are losing half their points to make the game more competitive and I doubt they would be happy if they did. They don't tell the #1 team in a division their scores are worth half as much now so the rest of the division can catch up, even though the "largest demographic" of players in the sport will be players not on the #1 team. These are all games, games have rules to be fair because nothing is fun about playing in a game that isn't fair. The simple truth is, they can at least find a middle ground to be fair to the players that play alot and not leave the ones that don't in the dust without completely screwing them over and leaving them feeling like they've wasted a lot of time playing this game.

Slurg

eliisra wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

I'd bet there are more casual players and our subscriptions cost the same as the power gamers.

The difference is the casual gamers tend to be less vocal because every time they speak up with a different opinion some elite V14 is right there screaming STFU noob L2P!

I would expect most loyal subscribers to have at least one VR12-14 by now and some alts. So I really don't get this casual v.s power gamer drama. It affects everyone that played the game for a while, regardless if your activities in-game are casual or more endgame focused.

Making long-term loyal users happy, should be important. That's my opinion. Not bending promises to please the guys that bought the game of Steam few weeks ago.

But in all fairness I don't think this is a big deal. The "power-gamer" will grind CP like mad anyway, he or she will be ahead in points after a few hours.

No. I've been here since prerelease and I don't. I have a full time job and a family I like to spend time with. There are lots of people just like me that have other things to do besides max leveling in ESO. When I'm in game I spend a lot of time crafting and playing alts. People with goals other than getting one character to max level as quickly as possible are long term subscribers too.