Evidence - Medium armour sneak passive is broken

Rune_Relic

@ZOS_GinaBruno

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/133247/9-23-14-hotfix-stealth-fixes-complete
I would have replied to this thread if there was in fact the option to do so.
I would have /help /bug sent but you cant do file attachments (just a single screenshot).

Definitive proof medium armour "improved sneak" is completely broken.
I have sneak tapped to the enemy with and without army until the detection eye just starts to open.
Naked and fully equipped has identical detection.
I have 0 points in any class skills although I am a NB.
All passives in medium / bow / shield / nord
As shown below...

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140925_224022.png

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140925_224149.png

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140925_224222.png

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140925_224311.png

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140925_224430.png

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140925_224450.png

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs

Nice, maybe they will do something about it next year.

Probitas

Well I'll state that does seem to show that the passive is useless. I remember pre 1.4 that when sneaking I could move past them and still have a flat eye when their backs were turned.

someuser

I believe a mod already addressed the confusion with the "stealth eye". Detection radius is not solely determined by when the eye starts opening up (it has been established the eye opens sooner), but rather at what point you are detected.

So, instead of testing when the eye begins to open, test at what point you are detected.

Probitas

From my memory I could be that close to an NPC before and have a flat eye, so it would seem something has certainly changed.

jelliedsoup

In PvP how do you know if you have been detected? If the eye is open but you can't see anyone, then you will block even though you can't see them which makes no sense.

Lionxoft

Rune_Relic wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/133247/9-23-14-hotfix-stealth-fixes-complete
I would have replied to this thread if there was in fact the option to do so.
I would have /help /bug sent but you cant do file attachments (just a single screenshot).

Definitive proof medium armour "improved sneak" is completely broken.
I have sneak tapped to the enemy with and without army until the detection eye just starts to open.
Naked and fully equipped has identical detection.
I have 0 points in any class skills although I am a NB.
All passives in medium / bow / shield / nord
As shown below...

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140925_224022.png

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140925_224149.png

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140925_224222.png

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140925_224311.png

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140925_224430.png

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140925_224450.png

But... They sai- But... @ZOS_ ... Oh, they fibbed?

Rune_Relic

err

someuser wrote: »

I believe a mod already addressed the confusion with the "stealth eye". Detection radius is not solely determined by when the eye starts opening up (it has been established the eye opens sooner), but rather at what point you are detected.

So, instead of testing when the eye begins to open, test at what point you are detected.

So whats the point of the detection eye if it doesn't say when you are detected ???
lol
The idea is its a warning system

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

Yes, I wrote the below in the Nightblades stealth thread,

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/131931/nightblades-stealth-completely-broken-zos-addressing-causes-bookmark-to-stay-updated

---

Yes, I have to agree, Stealth has changed from before in 1.3 and with 1.4 to broken and now to 1.4.4 with the fixes and I can be seen much easier than when it was 1.3 version.

The eye opens more in the current Version, I too have tested this the other night, I have all stealthy passives and wear full medium armor and have all the passives, also I use the Nightshade set (a 3 pc set) with a necklace and two daggers and I am a Normal Khajiit (non vampire) with the Stealthy passive maxed.

I run both bars as Dual wield with Concealed Weapon on both bars.

I switch to the Nightshade Daggers for increased stealth (the VR10 necklace activates the two daggers and the 3 pc set turns on and I get a 2.5 extra meters non detection and -25% sneak cost, the daggers are Legendary) and I then switch over to dual Ashen Grip swords for more damage (4 pc set, helmet, boots and two swords) when in combat and I wear the Nights silence set (5 pc, jack, shoulders, bracers, belt and guards) for the increased sneak speed.

So what I did was take off all my armor (7 pc medium) and without using the 3 pc Nightshade daggers / necklace I snuck up on a enemy (PvE) and the eye opens wide, almost opening, then I backed away.

I switched to the Nightshade dagger set and the detection radius did decrease, the eye doesn't open as wide when getting as close to the enemy as I could get closer until they would see me.

I then put my Medium armor on, all 7 pcs. and tested it again, without the Nightshade set and with the Nightshade set and the detection radius did not change at all with medium armor.

It looks like the Medium armor Passive for stealth is not working fully or at all.

In the past I could walk right past enemies and my eye wouldn't even open and now it's half-way open the majority of the time, I spend almost all my time on my Main Kotaro Atani so I know, just like others who use the Nightblade class who are on these forums that Stealth has changed.

Please fix the sneak/stealth, I will put in a ticket tonight if I don't see any movement on the forums.

MiyaTheUnbroken

Rune_Relic wrote: »

err

someuser wrote: »

I believe a mod already addressed the confusion with the "stealth eye". Detection radius is not solely determined by when the eye starts opening up (it has been established the eye opens sooner), but rather at what point you are detected.

So, instead of testing when the eye begins to open, test at what point you are detected.

So whats the point of the detection eye if it doesn't say when you are detected ???
lol
The idea is its a warning system

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the eye doesn't say when you are detected. It does. The eye will be closed when you are sneaking and no one is near to seeing you, it opens slightly when you are near to being detected, and it opens completely when you are detected, as well as having the word "DETECTED" show up on your screen.

For those of you who have not seen the mod's post about how detection radius should be working, it can be found here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/131931/nightblades-stealth-completely-broken-zos-addressing-causes-bookmark-to-stay-updated/p12

GnatB

Probitas wrote: »

From my memory I could be that close to an NPC before and have a flat eye, so it would seem something has certainly changed.

Could be they stealth fixed a bug where the eye was giving you erroneous feedback.

qiyamatawilrwb17_ESO

anyone else notice that applying effects of changing gear or spells require you to re-stealth? concealed weapon for ie. doesnt speed you up if you drop it in without changing your stealth status.

ers101284b14_ESO

Rune_Relic wrote: »

err

someuser wrote: »

I believe a mod already addressed the confusion with the "stealth eye". Detection radius is not solely determined by when the eye starts opening up (it has been established the eye opens sooner), but rather at what point you are detected.

So, instead of testing when the eye begins to open, test at what point you are detected.

So whats the point of the detection eye if it doesn't say when you are detected ???
lol
The idea is its a warning system

The eye partially opens means that enemies are around. Fully opened means your actually noticed. Closed means no enemies around.

qiyamatawilrwb17_ESO

was just thinking this over in another thread. i think the eye partially opens when near anything that can detect you. not a measure of how far your range is.
meaning the eye just doesnt show range as per buffs just that you are near enough to them. did you go naked standing in the same place? or move out then in once naked?

again i think how it works is the changes to stealth of any kind apply only when stealth is entered.

stewie_801

Here's Gina's post in another thread,

"Ok, I think there might be some confusion as to how stealth and detection works. When you are stealthed, the eye will begin to open very slightly at the same distance no matter what you have equipped. When the eye fully opens is dependent on your passives/items/etc, and this is when you are considered detected. The screenshot that @omniobsessed‌ posted demonstrates this - the eye is slightly open at the same distance in both situations, and that is working correctly with the way the system is designed.

Another thing to note is that the standard detection radius if you are stealthed is 10m in the front, 5m to the side, and 0m from behind. An ability that increases detection by 3m, for example, would mean you could see someone 13m in front, 8m to the side, and 3m behind.

With all that said, many of you are mentioning the eye opening, or when the eye is open. Are you referring to when the eye is fully open and you see the text "detected", or is it when the eye is only slightly open? If the former, it may be a legitimate issue, but if it's the latter, it may just be confusion as to how the system works.

Hope this helps explain things a bit. Let us know if you're continuing to see an issue keeping all these points in mind."

Partial eye open has never meant you were detected before. It as always been the full open eye. In these screenshots, you are not detected.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

stewie_801 wrote: »

Here's Gina's post in another thread,

"Ok, I think there might be some confusion as to how stealth and detection works. When you are stealthed, the eye will begin to open very slightly at the same distance no matter what you have equipped. When the eye fully opens is dependent on your passives/items/etc, and this is when you are considered detected. The screenshot that @omniobsessed‌ posted demonstrates this - the eye is slightly open at the same distance in both situations, and that is working correctly with the way the system is designed.

Another thing to note is that the standard detection radius if you are stealthed is 10m in the front, 5m to the side, and 0m from behind. An ability that increases detection by 3m, for example, would mean you could see someone 13m in front, 8m to the side, and 3m behind.

With all that said, many of you are mentioning the eye opening, or when the eye is open. Are you referring to when the eye is fully open and you see the text "detected", or is it when the eye is only slightly open? If the former, it may be a legitimate issue, but if it's the latter, it may just be confusion as to how the system works.

Hope this helps explain things a bit. Let us know if you're continuing to see an issue keeping all these points in mind."

Partial eye open has never meant you were detected before. It as always been the full open eye. In these screenshots, you are not detected.

It wasn't like this in Ver. 1.3 and earlier,

So then this is a Stealth Nerf, thanks ZOS, more overall Nightblade nerfing since Nightblades rely on Stealth.

You better buff some of our abilities and Nerf Impenetrable then since I can barely use crit' in PvP anymore...

Rune_Relic

qiyamatawilrwb17_ESO wrote: »

was just thinking this over in another thread. i think the eye partially opens when near anything that can detect you. not a measure of how far your range is.
meaning the eye just doesnt show range as per buffs just that you are near enough to them. did you go naked standing in the same place? or move out then in once naked?

again i think how it works is the changes to stealth of any kind apply only when stealth is entered.

I moved away..undressed..moved in until the eye 1st opened.
I moved away..dressed..moved in until the eye 1st opened.
This occurred at exactly the same distance from the NPC.

For those on hear saying this has no bearing on actual detection.
AFAIK if your sneak skill is better they will be less aware of you presence and you should get closer before the eye even begins to open. That's how I always assumed it worked....as per the MODS thread I guess.

To address that concern....I will do the experiment again...this time I will snapshot as soon as the red streaks of detection start flashing. I will post later.

Rune_Relic

As promised....I have experimented further with the medium armour passives.

Exactly as @ZOS_GinaBruno stated....

1. Naked or armoured eye 1st opening happened at identical distance from NPC
2. Looking at the vicinity of the wall before detection, I can get about 35% closer to the NPC with armour as per the passive before detection.
3. The 50% cost reduction was very noticable fighting naked so that defo works lol.

Now that begs the question of why everyone felt/believed the detection eye has changed in 1.4
I always used the eye beginning to open as a sign to back off.
It meant detection was imminent within a meter or so and a warning.
Now that eye detection does not mean an imminent threat.
Instead of being say 1m from just opening to detected....it now means 1-3m or something "variable " depending on buffs.
It feels like the detection transition from partial to full has been changed from a fixed number to a variable number.
Perhaps this is just me and an illusion of expected vs actual mechanic between 1.3 and 1.4 ?


compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140926_1.jpg armour 1st opening

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140926_2.jpg naked 1st opening

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140926_3.jpg armour 1st opening (above)

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140926_4.jpg naked 1st opening (above)

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140926_5.jpg armour 1st detected (above)

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140926_6.jpg naked 1st detected (above)

compuversal.com/eso/Screenshot_20140926_7.jpg gratuitous nord streak

Mountain_Dewed

I saw a female toon running around yesterday in Craglorn like she had the Night's Silence old buff still working, any idea how? I have all the passives and armor speed bonuses and don't come close to her speed?

zhevon

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Now that begs the question of why everyone felt/believed the detection eye has changed in 1.4
I always used the eye beginning to open as a sign to back off.
It meant detection was imminent within a meter or so and a warning.
Now that eye detection does not mean an imminent threat.
Instead of being say 1m from just opening to detected....it now means 1-3m or something "variable " depending on buffs.
It feels like the detection transition from partial to full has been changed from a fixed number to a variable number.
Perhaps this is just me and an illusion of expected vs actual mechanic between 1.3 and 1.4 ?

This is one of the serious problems with NB; we seem especially susceptible to weirdities when mechanics are broken or changed. I am noticing that the visual clues for detection and pre-detection are currently confusing and do not feel consistent.

Varicite

Mountain_Dewed wrote: »

I saw a female toon running around yesterday in Craglorn like she had the Night's Silence old buff still working, any idea how? I have all the passives and armor speed bonuses and don't come close to her speed?

Was she maybe using Rapid Maneuver (Alliance war skill)?

SLy_Kyti

Mountain_Dewed wrote: »

I saw a female toon running around yesterday in Craglorn like she had the Night's Silence old buff still working, any idea how? I have all the passives and armor speed bonuses and don't come close to her speed?

As mentioned in other stealth threads here, that set can still give (what was supposed to be corrected) bonus's when equipping and then removing them. Look for those posts to explain the exploit and what is still broken.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Works for me. I run 2 medium on my sorc just for the 10% stealth benefit. I can tell the difference between 1 piece and 2.

Kalann_Pander

Rune_Relic wrote: »

As promised....I have experimented further with the medium armour passives.

Exactly as @ZOS_GinaBruno stated....

1. Naked or armoured eye 1st opening happened at identical distance from NPC
2. Looking at the vicinity of the wall before detection, I can get about 35% closer to the NPC with armour as per the passive before detection.
3. The 50% cost reduction was very noticable fighting naked so that defo works lol.

Now that begs the question of why everyone felt/believed the detection eye has changed in 1.4
I always used the eye beginning to open as a sign to back off.
It meant detection was imminent within a meter or so and a warning.
Now that eye detection does not mean an imminent threat.
Instead of being say 1m from just opening to detected....it now means 1-3m or something "variable " depending on buffs.
It feels like the detection transition from partial to full has been changed from a fixed number to a variable number.
Perhaps this is just me and an illusion of expected vs actual mechanic between 1.3 and 1.4 ?

What this means is that trying to stealth a stealthy opponent in PvP will become considerably more difficult, because the target will get an indication that someone is in the vicinity, and thus be able to raise block before being attacked.

Undetected opponents should not influence the detection eye.

bunnytrix

Those screenshots say it all about the medium passive, but as I have been saying (many times) in the other NB stealth thread linked above...
before 1.4 you could have been right on top of those mobs in the shots and the eye would not be open even a fraction.
1.4 either nerfed or broke stealth. The mod post about stealth you are quoting is not how stealth worked pre 1.4...All sneaking NBs know this. Stealth has changed for the worse no matter what equipment/passives/abilities you have.

Rune_Relic

bunnytrix wrote: »

Those screenshots say it all about the medium passive, but as I have been saying (many times) in the other NB stealth thread linked above...
before 1.4 you could have been right on top of those mobs in the shots and the eye would not be open even a fraction.
1.4 either nerfed or broke stealth. The mod post about stealth you are quoting is not how stealth worked pre 1.4...All sneaking NBs know this. Stealth has changed for the worse no matter what equipment/passives/abilities you have.

1.4 never felt right to me....but I could never put my finger on it.
Clearly then the start of detection radius and end of detection radius use to scale together in 1.3. In 1.4 the start detection radius obviously doesn't scale with the end detection radius. I just couldn't put my finger on it....and cant go back in time and confirm it. Maybe even the passive was broken so I never noticed the start-end detection seperation so much.
/shrugs.... dont know.

Tamanous

Could be mobs are seeing out of their azzes now. I play a shadow mage so luckily I simply use invis to get close for openers because my stealth sucks anyway but I would like this fixed (oh and let's say all other currently direct and indirect NB bugs and futures ones) before I grow into 5 light/ 2 medium armor later on.

MiyaTheUnbroken

This is all just speculation, and is not founded in any actual fact or research, but I would assume that they intended for the distance between when the eye begins to open and when it is fully open to correlate with one another, but when they tried to fix what had been broken they lost this. Now the slightly open eye is the same for everyone, and only the distance at which you are completely detected differs. I would also assume that at this point it will be considered good enough. They have a LOT of other things that need to be fixed, and while I don't believe stealth is working as intended, it is working. I think we'll be stuck with it like this for a while.