Another reason why the Emperor leaderboards are bogus.

Lionxoft

I've always felt like the Emperor leaderboard ranking is complete garbage. Our alliance keeps a resource in enemy control in order to be able to port to a forward camp further out on the map. They of course need to die at that resource in order to port. Enemies will sit in stealth and snake those kills gathering tremendous amounts of AP without having to touch a single keep whether it be defense or offense.

Sometimes I like playing around with those guys and will run a detect pot outside the LOS of the guards or just start clearing the guards myself to lure the players out of stealth. By no means are they difficult kills but I was curious so I messaged one of those players to see his exact motive for doing it.

He replied "I'm making a mil a day". *Granted I'm sure 1mil is an exaggeration but he still has A LOT of AP from just doing this.*

He was really cool about it and we ended up having a pretty good conversation about non-eso related stuff. The strategy is not my cup of tea but I can't blame him. He's enjoying himself at least and that's important but the current ranking system, as we are all aware, is not reflected on actual value to the campaign in regards to keep defense/offense.

Would one win a King of the Hill or tower defense match and be rewarded if the objective was failed? Probably not.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler‌
Any plans to update the Emperor ranking algorithm to something that actually rewards the players for playing objectively with their faction? This could fix a lot of the issues with Emperor trading especially in this scenario where a group of players camp these resources to gain tremendous AP.

Cody

emperor ranking needs to be about more than just earned AP. Leaderboard ranks themselves need to be about more than just earned AP.

LonePirate

The amount of AP gained from anything besides killing other players is ridiculously low. For instance, I am rank 20 and I need 640,000 AP to reach rank 21. The AP I receive from one of the Capture Castle/Fort/Keep quests is 1,000 AP. I would need to capture 640 of them to reach my next rank, and that is assuming that I had a quest for each one I capture. I don't because the random nature of how the capture quests are given defies any and all logistical battle sense. It is far easier to rack up 640 kills and far more AP than it is to do anything else. That's why people sit and farm these suicide nodes or places like Arrius Mine.

The AP needed for each rank needs to be cut by at least 75%. Capturing a castle/fort/keep should be worth a minimum of 5,000 AP, even without the quest. Capturing a resource should be worth at least 1,000 AP. Players need to receive AP for killing the guards, mages, archers and other defenders of resources and castles/forts/keeps as currently none is awarded. The AP awarded for player kills needs to be reduced dramatically. All of these changes would make the Emperor leadership boards more meaningful.

Tintinabula

so stop keeping an enemy resource so you can die teleport quickly to other spots on the map while clearly circumventing intended game mechanics.

Lionxoft

Tintinabula wrote: »

so stop keeping an enemy resource so you can die teleport quickly to other spots on the map while clearly circumventing intended game mechanics.

*sigh* You understand the uproar that causes right? I'd rather just kill the enemies camping it. Learn2Read.

Tintinabula

I think I read your post and comprehended it quite accurately.
Your alliance does something the game developers did not intend. (You DON'T cap one resource)
And your alliance does this to gain an advantage over other alliances who do not do it by getting somewhere quicker(without having to ride or run or PvP or give another alliance AP via your deaths)...
HOWEVER the other alliance has figured out something even better...farm AP off your laziness. ( which personally I think is hilarious)

Cutting this down to brass tacks..your unintended misuse of poor game design is also being misused by your enemy for their benefit..and you're butthurt.

Lionxoft

Tintinabula wrote: »

I think I read your post and comprehended it quite accurately.
Your alliance does something the game developers did not intend. (You DON'T cap one resource)
And your alliance does this to gain an advantage over other alliances who do not do it by getting somewhere quicker(without having to ride or run or PvP or give another alliance AP via your deaths)...
HOWEVER the other alliance has figured out something even better...farm AP off your laziness. ( which personally I think is hilarious)

Cutting this down to brass tacks..your unintended misuse of poor game design is also being used by your enemy for their benefit..and you're butthurt.

This doesn't help their alliance as a whole. They are still missing keeps, outposts, resources and scrolls which causes them to miss points during score evaluations. You understand how the campaign scoring system works in contrast to the Emperor leaderboards, right?

If you read and comprehended the original post accurately then you would note that this topic is in regards to how the Emperor rankings are determined and insufficient the current system is. This isn't a complaint or a QQ thread about a way that a player gains more AP. Honestly, I don't care how he gained AP. I can't blame him for doing it this way either as stated in the original post. It doesn't appeal to me but it makes sense why he would sit there all day. Players that are not contributing to their alliance's efforts are still eligible to gain Emperorship ranking. I use this situation as a perfect example of how the current system falls short. There are plenty of other scenarios to farm AP in order to gain the Farmer Emperor title/buffs that don't help the alliance as a whole.

The Emperor leaderboard really needs a weighted system to determine ranking. Something along the lines of Keep defense/offense and a fraction of AP that is determined off of value to the campaign's efforts. Ranking off of straight AP is just begging for exploits and farming. If the process of crowning an Emperor is objective (Capping center keeps) then the ranking process needs to derive itself from that same objective playstyle.

Maybe you didn't comprehend the original post all that accurately? That's really not the matter at hand though.

Ezareth

The guys who do this on EP are all garbage. I've killed them all while they were sitting on the resource, and then killed them on their way back, and then killed the entire squad of people they called in to help them...solo.

I've taken the resource several times with some friends (to hell with suicide resources) but they just come back and retake it a short while later and my side happily feeds them AP.

I actually had to the idea to do this a good month ago and made pretty insane AP (You get 1600 AP for every "kill" you get)...after about an hour of doing it I felt dirty and haven't done it since.

I'm going to laugh if EP ever gets Emperor on thornblade...the # 1 player has done this for days on end as have 2 of the top 10.

Columba

Killing enemies should always be worth much more than objectives, sorry. The abuse if keeps were worth tons would horrific.

Tintinabula

I think I comprehend it better than you do to be honest. Are you part of the problem?..or part of the solution?. You want to keep your cake and eat it too.,

here you state:

Lionxoft wrote: »

gathering tremendous amounts of AP without having to touch a single keep whether it be defense or offense.

But then you state:

Lionxoft wrote: »

This isn't a complaint or a QQ thread about a way that a player gains more AP. Honestly, I don't care how he gained AP. I can't blame him for doing it this way either as stated in the original post. It doesn't appeal to me but it makes sense why he would sit there all day. Players that are not contributing to their alliance's efforts are still eligible to gain Emperorship ranking. I use this situation as a perfect example of how the current system falls short. There are plenty of other scenarios to farm AP in order to gain the Farmer Emperor title/buffs that don't help the alliance as a whole.

so which is it?..you bold typed the first quote and the say you're not concerned with how they gain AP..when in fact you certainly are concerned with how they gain AP.

My point is your very own alliances actions(or lack thereof) are contributing to this type of behavior. Coming here to shine a light on poor game design is OK in my book but don't be blind to the fact that you are contributing to the problem by allowing this via not capping a resource for your convenience.

So..either we will police our own actions..or ultimately (as you have asked for) ZoS will have to step in and police our actions for us. And in the process they will hopefully clean up all misuse of their system on all fronts...even the keeping an enemy resource for your "convenience".

If it upsets you that much that people are able to gain AP when "not contributing to their alliance" take the darned resource...prevent them from farming AP. This goes for anyone anywhere who wants to farm a resource.
How are these people any different than say a "guild" sitting in a tower with oil and fending off attackers for hours and hours and hours just so they can "farm ap"? What are they doing for their alliance?...should ZoS prevent that too?..no of course not.

It's a slippery slope when you deem yourself the grandmaster of what is contribution and what is not. It's even more slippery when you're told that you are contributing to the problem..not the solution.

Take the resource..put up or move on.

driosketch

LonePirate wrote: »

The amount of AP gained from anything besides killing other players is ridiculously low. For instance, I am rank 20 and I need 640,000 AP to reach rank 21. The AP I receive from one of the Capture Castle/Fort/Keep quests is 1,000 AP. I would need to capture 640 of them to reach my next rank, and that is assuming that I had a quest for each one I capture. I don't because the random nature of how the capture quests are given defies any and all logistical battle sense. It is far easier to rack up 640 kills and far more AP than it is to do anything else.

Pretty much this. I'd like to see objective focused play climb up to match AP farming kills.

Thevampirenight

Thevampirenight wrote: »

What they need to do is if you get emperer it takes your score back to zero, that way everyone can have a far shot at it, and a 5 day cool down until you can be the first in the leadership board if you get it back up let them keep the buffs and the former title, and keep resets and scrolls being returned to there bases every 5 days so people don't hoard them by chaging it to were I have said it it would stop a lot of the emperior farming. and be good for those that want the emperer

what I said in another thing this needs to be done this is fix a lot of that. emp farming its bad that people hoard this statis, by farming people. this would prevent that and hurt them , but make it a lot better

Renuo

We die a lot to someone and they shouldn't benefit from it.

Am I doing it right??

Thevampirenight

Renuo wrote: »

We die a lot to someone and they shouldn't benefit from it.

Am I doing it right??

Well it depends on the players and what they are out to do.

Turelus

Cody wrote: »

emperor ranking needs to be about more than just earned AP. Leaderboard ranks themselves need to be about more than just earned AP.

This x1000. AP doesn't show you anything about a person other than they have more time to play and probably run in a smaller group than you.
As a player who often leads full 24man raids and creates enjoyable content for others I find it sad that I am penalised for that in regards to my rankings.

Although I am a former Emperor so I don't really care about rankings any more... :P

Lionxoft

Tintinabula wrote: »

I think I comprehend it better than you do to be honest. Are you part of the problem?..or part of the solution?. You want to keep your cake and eat it too.,

here you state:

Lionxoft wrote: »

gathering tremendous amounts of AP without having to touch a single keep whether it be defense or offense.

But then you state:

Lionxoft wrote: »

This isn't a complaint or a QQ thread about a way that a player gains more AP. Honestly, I don't care how he gained AP. I can't blame him for doing it this way either as stated in the original post. It doesn't appeal to me but it makes sense why he would sit there all day. Players that are not contributing to their alliance's efforts are still eligible to gain Emperorship ranking. I use this situation as a perfect example of how the current system falls short. There are plenty of other scenarios to farm AP in order to gain the Farmer Emperor title/buffs that don't help the alliance as a whole.

so which is it?..you bold typed the first quote and the say you're not concerned with how they gain AP..when in fact you certainly are concerned with how they gain AP.

My point is your very own alliances actions(or lack thereof) are contributing to this type of behavior. Coming here to shine a light on poor game design is OK in my book but don't be blind to the fact that you are contributing to the problem by allowing this via not capping a resource for your convenience.

So..either we will police our own actions..or ultimately (as you have asked for) ZoS will have to step in and police our actions for us. And in the process they will hopefully clean up all misuse of their system on all fronts...even the keeping an enemy resource for your "convenience".

If it upsets you that much that people are able to gain AP when "not contributing to their alliance" take the darned resource...prevent them from farming AP. This goes for anyone anywhere who wants to farm a resource.
How are these people any different than say a "guild" sitting in a tower with oil and fending off attackers for hours and hours and hours just so they can "farm ap"? What are they doing for their alliance?...should ZoS prevent that too?..no of course not.

It's a slippery slope when you deem yourself the grandmaster of what is contribution and what is not. It's even more slippery when you're told that you are contributing to the problem..not the solution.

Take the resource..put up or move on.

[snip] It's incredible that after explaining twice to you that this topic is in regards to how the Emperor ranking is decided. The previous posts before your original had no problem discerning the topic of the thread yet you're incapable.

I believe that you pick and choose which parts of posts you wish to understand. You mention the scenario of a guild sitting in a tower with oil... Did you not read this from my post? Really?

From the original post:

"I use this situation as a perfect example of how the current system falls short. There are plenty of other scenarios to farm AP in order to gain the Farmer Emperor title/buffs that don't help the alliance as a whole."

In addition, no one claimed to be the "grandmaster" of anything. The sky is blue. That is a fact. Does that make me the grandmaster of Earth because I can make a simple observation? The alliance contribution is not difficult to understand. Keeps, outposts, resources and scrolls.

Another one of your "gems":

"My point is your very own alliances actions(or lack thereof) are contributing to this type of behavior. Coming here to shine a light on poor game design is OK in my book but don't be blind to the fact that you are contributing to the problem by allowing this via not capping a resource for your convenience."

Who's to say that I don't either just kill them and transitus past the keep? I don't mind riding my horse to the battle if I have to. Digging much?

You also spewed:

"If it upsets you that much that people are able to gain AP when "not contributing to their alliance" take the darned resource...prevent them from farming AP."

however this was addressed in the original post:

"The strategy is not my cup of tea but I can't blame him. He's enjoying himself at least and that's important but the current ranking system, as we are all aware, is not reflected on actual value to the campaign in regards to keep defense/offense."

Where does one come to the assumption that it upsets me? It's clear in the quote from the original post that I can't blame him for enjoying himself which I think is great and that the focus was honed in on the Emperor leaderboard ranking system. The topic of discussion, as stated for the thousandth time (exaggeration) is how the Emperor leaderboard rankings are determined. I hope it is clear to you.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Lionxoft

Columba wrote: »

Killing enemies should always be worth much more than objectives, sorry. The abuse if keeps were worth tons would horrific.

Elaborate please. Keep defense/offense would encourage constant objective gameplay. I'd like to read more of your reasoning.

Lionxoft

Renuo wrote: »

We die a lot to someone and they shouldn't benefit from it.

Am I doing it right??

You're missing the point I think. Objective gameplay needs to have a more significant value. It's entirely unbalanced with the current system. The system needs an overhaul but that would be a start.

Rallick71

You should also get AP from using a Siege Weapon! Even if it was as low as 1AP per 1000 damage would make it a little more worthwhile at least.

Ghostbane

You get AP from attacking players with siege.

But attacking a keep and gaining AP, not so sure on that. Could lead to ridiculous farming.

Not to mention with the complaints of PvD of AD on TB[NA], I doubt this would be a sensible idea.

Rallick71

I'm not saying anything near great AP. I totally agree with your sentiments but there has to be a little more from standing on a Siege the whole time. Only slightly more AP than the nothing you get now. And you only get AP from attacking players if they actually die

TheBull

No matter the scoring system, the people at the top will still be at the top.

Lionxoft

TheBull wrote: »

No matter the scoring system, the people at the top will still be at the top.

Sorry but I can't say I agree with this.

timidobserver

It doesn't really matter what they change it to. Someone will find a way to farm whatever is necessary to get emperor.

That said, it might not be a bad idea to include more into the equation than just AP earned.

stonecolb

The thing that really pisses me off is emporer farming....people work hard for it only to be screwed.....CS do nothing about it PVP issues have crossed my line..

eliisra

TheBull wrote: »

No matter the scoring system, the people at the top will still be at the top.

No, they will re-set their points back to zero, when a guildie is placed number 2 on the leaderboard lol. That's how most people get emperor buffs, handed to them.

I do get what you mean, regardless of system no-lifers will always be ahead of everyone else. That's common sense. If we got the most AP from doing Cyrodiil PvE, than no-lifers would stop farming players and start shooting at walls instead.

But I still think resources should be worth more than 26 AP

LonePirate

stonecolb wrote: »

The thing that really pisses me off is emporer farming....people work hard for it only to be screwed.....CS do nothing about it PVP issues have crossed my line..

The Emperor farming has been reduced dramatically since 1.3 was released. There is really no need to be upset about it any longer. Haderus and Bow of Shadows are both dead campaigns. Blackwater Blade has all the low level guys struggling against the VR5 guards that hit like freight trains. The same two guys alternate Emperor on Thornblade. Chillrend is the only possible campaign where Emperor changes are common and even then it's not nearly as frequent as what happened on some of the pre-1.3 campaigns. Emperor farming is pretty much a thing of the past for the most part.

stonecolb

Well i was screwed over by these farmers and it crossed my pissing line....Emporer trading etc etc is allowed as well....

CS dont are kinda ***....And to be honest...we dont pay subscription for this ***...

Brian Wheeler is the 1 to blame.....to be honest this whole game is a mess....

Icy

I agree with most of the OP but...

LonePirate wrote: »

Players need to receive AP for killing the guards, mages, archers and other defenders of resources and castles/forts/keeps as currently none is awarded.

While agree that you should get extra AP for taking a keep or resource (in addition to the quest, and/or the attack/defend tick), I don't agree with this point. I think it would only encourage the PvDoor (PvP against NPCs, not PCs) that happens in the unbalanced campaigns.

Nice post btw ^_^. Insightful!

Azarul

The one thing I think needs to be changed is the completing kill quests and such in your guest campaign and then porting over to your home campaign to turn them in and count for emperor AP.

Lionxoft