Actual mitigation of Armour/Spell Resists

Mystborn

There is another thread going on here looking at the benefit of armour but it looks like some of the data they are getting from V1-9 mobs is buggy and is throwing their conclusions off as a result.

Mitigation from Armour or Spell Resistance is determined like this:

( [Effective Armour/SR] - 100 ) / [Total Level&Rank] = Mitigation%

Where:

[Effective Armour/SR] = The Armour value from your character screen (after Overcharge diminishing returns have been taken into account)
[Total Level&Rank] = The total of your Level and VR. Note, since L50 = VR1 this number is 1 less than it seems it should be - a VR 12 would use 49+12 = 61.

Mitigation cannot go below 0% and cannot go above 50%

Soft cap occurs when your Mitigation is 30%, so at VR12 this is at:

61 * 30 + 100 = 1930

Hard cap occurs when your Mitigation is 50%, so at VR12 this is at:

61 * 50 + 100 = 3150

I hope this makes sense and is helpful to you all.

Doctoruniverse

Cant understand why their API is so crappy.

Why cant they fill this information into the game.

Mystborn

Doctoruniverse wrote: »

Cant understand why their API is so crappy.

Why cant they fill this information into the game.

Yeah, it's unfortunate.

I guess the thinking is that by keeping numbers hidden the game will be less theorycrafted/minmax/spreadsheet or w/e. The problem is that isn't actually the case, when you obscure or hide the numbers all that happens is that theorycrafters/minmaxers take a little bit longer to get their hands on them and still do their thing. It's your regular average Joe Casual player who is flying blind and not knowing how his choices affect or interact with the game world, at the mercy of the theorycrafters sharing their info/build/whatever.

Doctoruniverse

It would be much quicker balancing if "Joe casual" had this information, instead misinformation is running rampant everywhere.

Aeratus

Very useful summary. Thanks for posting.

One consequence is that at V1, you need 2450 armor to achieve 50% damage mitigation, but at V10 you need 3050, for an increase of 24.5% in final effective armor. But due to the diminishing returns, the actual base armor increase you need to maintain 50% mitigation is likely a little more than 24.5%, because the range between softcap and the hardcap is increased.

However, the V1 white heavy armor is 217 armor points, while the V10 one is 269, for an increase of only 24.0%.

So it seems that armor becomes slightly weaker as you progress, and the only way to compensate is to upgrade your armor with higher level tempers.

dragnier

Having done some actual testing, though admittedly not totally comprehensive, as a v12 vs. some v11 enemies:

Armor and Spell Resist Mitigation %

Blocking mitigation % for various armor amounts/types

Your calculation for Spell Resist is probably "technically" accurate, but since everyone has 1320 base Spell Resist at v12 (Except for the Breton passive), I consider that the 0% mitigation point because everyone has it... yes it can be reduced below that to increase magical damage, but there again is something that should be changed for balance.

Basically, at 0 Armor you can't be reduced any lower to take any extra damage so what you see is what you get...

However, with Spell Resist, you can technically go "below the 0 line" or basically the equivalent of getting negative armor value.

The fact that getting hit by a v11 monster while having 0 armor and not blocking is still less damage than getting hit by a spell from a similar (if elite) monster with 1320 spell resist shows just how out of balance this stuff is.

If 1930 Spell resist is supposed to = 30% mitigation, then 1320 should be somewhere around 20% mitigation.

That in turn means that damage from spells which is already bigger than the damage from melee/stam abilities can be even larger than that with penetration while armor penetration would do nothing against 0 armor.

What it boils down to is no armor should = no spell resist and the numbers could be balanced around that much easier...

Mystborn

While I agree that the base SR you level up with is inherent and can't be "taken off" in the same way armour can I don't quite follow your logic from there.

Regardless of that fact that you can take off your armour if you want to, it isn't something that would ever occur in an actual situation. Why would you want to balance numbers around a player with no armour and no spell resist if that is a situation that wouldn't ever actually occur?

As it is now everyone gets 20% mitigation to spell damage and that number can either be increased by gaining more SR through passives or actives or reduced by the attackers Spell Pen.

Worstluck

I don't understand why everyone has a base 20% mitigation to spells. Why not start at 0%? It makes sense that SR could go negative from a gameplay aspect, as say something can make you more vulnerable to a certain type of magic or whatever. With armor, it makes sense that this could not go below zero. Just curious.

Mystborn

I guess chiefly because that's just how they did it... Neither way is inherently wrong.

It has its benefits (as a system) because it works in the same way as Armour and thus promotes consistency. I think that is reason enough to have it work the way it does - no need to have a separate and distinct mitigation system.

Now, they could have kept with the same system and given you 0 inherent resists and have gear give you SR as well as Armour but then people might complain that it doesn't make sense that they get more resistant to magic by putting on a belt.

dragnier

Mystborn wrote: »

Now, they could have kept with the same system and given you 0 inherent resists and have gear give you SR as well as Armour but then people might complain that it doesn't make sense that they get more resistant to magic by putting on a belt.

But that is exactly what happens with the passives on light and heavy armor that give % increases to the base spell resist.

Also, I've seen people run around with no armor for the fun of it only to realize that their armor barely made a difference as long as they remember to block.

NerfEverything

So how does blocking factor in? Is it subject to the 50% mitigation hardcap?

dragnier

NerfEverything wrote: »

So how does blocking factor in? Is it subject to the 50% mitigation hardcap?

Does not seem to be, though the more armor you have, the less effective blocking becomes, so there appears to be diminishing returns.

The sweet spot for block lies somewhere between light and medium armor levels, if you want to maximize the mitigation from block, but the overall total effectiveness still stacks with more armor because block plus armor still adds up to a greater total even when the total mitigation from block is less.

Full Light armor w/ passives + shield + block + Defensive Stance on bar vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 103 dmg per light attack.

That's approx. 69% mitigation while stamina holds.(54% increase from blocking)

Full Medium armor w/ passives + shield + block + Defensive Stance on bar vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 94 dmg per light attack.

That's approx. 71% mitigation while stamina holds.(49% increase from blocking)

Full Heavy armor w/ passives + shield + block + Defensive Stance on bar vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 83 dmg per light attack.

That's approx. 75% mitigation while stamina holds.(43% increase from blocking)

Lyall84

I think they need to make the soft cap 50% and hard cap 75%. Cut the amount of (like the actual armor value) if light armor by half, medium armor around 30%, then adjust the protection given per armor value to meet the caps. That way heavy armor caps at 75%, and they are the only ones that should get close to that. Medium armor should only be able to get to sound 50% and light to around 25%.

I would then say reverse these for spell pen, but I think you would have to swap the medium and heavy spell resistances, so the tanks could tank. Medium would just have to dodge or be sneaky.

My 2 cents. The values as they sit are too close together. The benefit of 10 to 15% more physical damage reduction in heavy armor is not worth the loss of all the other benefits of even medium armor, let alone the superior light armor.

Mystborn

NerfEverything wrote: »

So how does blocking factor in? Is it subject to the 50% mitigation hardcap?

No, it's a separate layer of mitigation.

Mystborn

dragnier wrote: »

NerfEverything wrote: »

So how does blocking factor in? Is it subject to the 50% mitigation hardcap?

Does not seem to be, though the more armor you have, the less effective blocking becomes, so there appears to be diminishing returns.

The sweet spot for block lies somewhere between light and medium armor levels, if you want to maximize the mitigation from block, but the overall total effectiveness still stacks with more armor because block plus armor still adds up to a greater total even when the total mitigation from block is less.

Full Light armor w/ passives + shield + block + Defensive Stance on bar vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 103 dmg per light attack.

That's approx. 69% mitigation while stamina holds.(54% increase from blocking)

Full Medium armor w/ passives + shield + block + Defensive Stance on bar vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 94 dmg per light attack.

That's approx. 71% mitigation while stamina holds.(49% increase from blocking)

Full Heavy armor w/ passives + shield + block + Defensive Stance on bar vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 83 dmg per light attack.

That's approx. 75% mitigation while stamina holds.(43% increase from blocking)

Do you have the damage amounts with the exact same setups without blocking? I would be surprised if there was not a consistent ratio of:
[damage with block] : [damage without block]
no matter the amount of armour you're wearing.

dragnier

Mystborn wrote: »

dragnier wrote: »

NerfEverything wrote: »

So how does blocking factor in? Is it subject to the 50% mitigation hardcap?

Does not seem to be, though the more armor you have, the less effective blocking becomes, so there appears to be diminishing returns.

The sweet spot for block lies somewhere between light and medium armor levels, if you want to maximize the mitigation from block, but the overall total effectiveness still stacks with more armor because block plus armor still adds up to a greater total even when the total mitigation from block is less.

Full Light armor w/ passives + shield + block + Defensive Stance on bar vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 103 dmg per light attack.

That's approx. 69% mitigation while stamina holds.(54% increase from blocking)

Full Medium armor w/ passives + shield + block + Defensive Stance on bar vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 94 dmg per light attack.

That's approx. 71% mitigation while stamina holds.(49% increase from blocking)

Full Heavy armor w/ passives + shield + block + Defensive Stance on bar vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 83 dmg per light attack.

That's approx. 75% mitigation while stamina holds.(43% increase from blocking)

Do you have the damage amounts with the exact same setups without blocking? I would be surprised if there was not a consistent ratio of:
[damage with block] : [damage without block]
no matter the amount of armour you're wearing.

Yep, in my other posts I linked earlier.

Armor and Spell Resist Mitigation % <- this one is just armor without blocking

Blocking mitigation % for various armor amounts/types <- this one is including block, with and without passives.

For example:

LIght armor w/ passives + shield (no shield passive)

vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 286 dmg per light attack.

1027 armor = 15% mitigation

Full Light armor w/ passives + shield (no shield passive) +block

vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 143 dmg per light attack.

That's approx. 57% mitigation while stamina holds.(42% increase from blocking)

Full Light armor w/ passives + shield (with shield passive) + block

vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 115 dmg per light attack.[/b]

That's approx. 65% mitigation while stamina holds.(50% increase from blocking)

Full Light armor w/ passives + shield (with shield passive) + block + Defensive Stance on bar

vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 103 dmg per light attack.[/b]

That's approx. 69% mitigation while stamina holds.(54% increase from blocking)

So, yes, the % block passive bonuses are multiplicative.

42% x 20% = 8% for 50% total and then 50% x 8% = 4% for 54% total. But the initial block while wearing light armor + shield is still 42% increase over not blocking.

I also tested blocking completely naked w/o a shield and got a 50% mitigation. Naked w/ shield was roughly the same amount even with the bit of armor from the shield.

Mystborn

Sorry, I looked there and it didn't look like they were done with the same gearset - I went back and pulled some numbers and it looks like it doesn't matter what armour you wear, Block will mitigate by the same %:

Baseline: Naked with no shield

vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 336 dmg per light attack.

Completely naked and no shield + block vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 168 dmg per light attack.

168/336 = 50%

LIght armor w/ passives + shield

vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 286 dmg per light attack.

Full Light armor w/ passives + shield +block vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 143 dmg per light attack.

143/286 = 50%

Heavy armor w/ passives but no shield

vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 237 dmg per light attack.

Full Heavy armor w/ passives and no shield +block vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 118 dmg per light attack.

118/237 = 49.79%

Heavy armor w/ passives + shield

vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 231 dmg per light attack.

Full Heavy armor w/ passives + shield +block vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 116 dmg per light attack.

116/231 = 50.22%

No matter what your Armour is, block will cut the damage you take in half.

dragnier

Mystborn wrote: »

Sorry, I looked there and it didn't look like they were done with the same gearset - I went back and pulled some numbers and it looks like it doesn't matter what armour you wear, Block will mitigate by the same %:

Baseline: Naked with no shield

vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 336 dmg per light attack.

Completely naked and no shield + block vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 168 dmg per light attack.

168/336 = 50%

LIght armor w/ passives + shield

vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 286 dmg per light attack.

Full Light armor w/ passives + shield +block vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 143 dmg per light attack.

143/286 = 50%

Heavy armor w/ passives but no shield

vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 237 dmg per light attack.

Full Heavy armor w/ passives and no shield +block vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 118 dmg per light attack.

118/237 = 49.79%

Heavy armor w/ passives + shield

vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 231 dmg per light attack.

Full Heavy armor w/ passives + shield +block vs. pack of 4 v11 Welwas, all physical damage: took 116 dmg per light attack.

116/231 = 50.22%

No matter what your Armour is, block will cut the damage you take in half.

Yes, block appears to half the damage but after armor applies which is weird, don't you think? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Block half the damage first and then armor absorbs some of what gets through?

Mystborn

Well multiplication is commutative so we don't actually know (and it doesn't actually matter) what order they are applied.

For example, if you have 1930 armour, just grazing the softcap and getting 30% mitigation from it and you block for another 50% mitigation then you get hit by an attack that does 1000 base damage:

Armour then Block:
1000 -> 700 from Armour, 700 -> 350 from Block.

Block then Armour:
1000 -> 500 from Block, 500 -> 350 from Armour.

Either way you took the same damage.

dragnier

Good point there.

So basically it has to do with comparative advantage.

Even though block is 50% (65% with full passive and defensive stance on bar)... when you combine the total amount mitigated vs. the amount if it weren't mitigated at all on an individual basis, the benefit from armor still drops off as you get more and more armor due to diminishing returns and block effectiveness.

Drawing from your example, assuming 50% block and softcap 30% mitigation:

1000 -> 500 -> 350

350 is 35% of 1000 so the total mitigation is 65%

Now using 50% block and hardcap 50% mitigation:

1000 -> 500 -> 250

250 is 25% of 1000 so the total mitigation is 75%

Next using 65% block by including passive and defensive stance with 30% softcap:

1000 -> 350 -> 245

245 is 24.5% of 1000 so the total mitigation is 76.5%

Finally, using 65% block and 50% hardcap:

1000 -> 350 -> 175

175 is 17.5% of 1000 so the total mitigation is 82.5%

Notice how softcap + improved block is actually a little (miniscule) bit better than regular block plus hardcap?

This is why light armor is so much better than heavy right now. It is easy to keep all the light armor passives AND hit the softcap for armor with a couple of enchants.

Include the Twilight's Embrace set bonus for 10% increased healing (which is better than the 7% you can get from heavy armor passive) and either the Whitestrake's Retribution 5 pc or Song of Lamae 3 pc for health regen, and you equal to overtake what the heavy passives give you on top of being just as tanky vs. physical and more tanky vs. spells than in heavy armor.

Yes, heavy armor CAN achieve more total mitigation, but at the extreme marginal cost of lost threat/dps/support when compared to a properly geared light armor tank.

The ease of itemization and lower marginal costs make light armor tanking much more preferable to heavy armor... and due to the stamina issues far outweigh medium armor.

Mystborn

I see what you're saying but I don't agree with comparing the mitigation based on the absolute amount mitigated, tanking has always been measured by EH (Effective Health).

You can put Twilight's Embrace on Heavy Armour also, Health Regen is utter garbage and you shouldn't gear for it.

I think part of the problem might be that right now there is only one fight in the game where the boss hits hard enough that you need to be hardcapped for armour (The Warrior). I was talking with a guildmate who tanks just last week and I was surprised to hear that for almost all the fights in Trials he ran the same action bar as DPS players were using with one ability swapped out for a taunt. When I questioned him on this he explained that since survivability isn't an issue he might as well do as much dps as possible (he runs heavy armour).

dragnier

But that's part of the problem too. Effective Health IS modified by health regen so it should matter, but it doesn't. And overall mitigation is part of figuring out EH, though it isn't the only factor.

All of this is a moot point as you pointed out because there isn't much mitigation needed in this game for tanking as long as you remember to block at the correct times.

For this reason alone, heavy armor isn't even close to being useful other than a personal preference choice... one that actually makes you less effective at that.

Jade_Knightblazerb14_ESO

Just thought I would put a Call out for this little Addon Gem --> http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info541-MitigationValue.html

Mystborn

dragnier wrote: »

But that's part of the problem too. Effective Health IS modified by health regen so it should matter, but it doesn't. And overall mitigation is part of figuring out EH, though it isn't the only factor.

All of this is a moot point as you pointed out because there isn't much mitigation needed in this game for tanking as long as you remember to block at the correct times.

For this reason alone, heavy armor isn't even close to being useful other than a personal preference choice... one that actually makes you less effective at that.

Yes, Health Regen is part of EH, but it is so small it is negligible.

If you use Heavy armour you don't have to waste slots on defensive buffs to keep your armour softcapped, that's a benefit right?... right?

dragnier

Mystborn wrote: »

dragnier wrote: »

But that's part of the problem too. Effective Health IS modified by health regen so it should matter, but it doesn't. And overall mitigation is part of figuring out EH, though it isn't the only factor.

All of this is a moot point as you pointed out because there isn't much mitigation needed in this game for tanking as long as you remember to block at the correct times.

For this reason alone, heavy armor isn't even close to being useful other than a personal preference choice... one that actually makes you less effective at that.

Yes, Health Regen is part of EH, but it is so small it is negligible.

If you use Heavy armour you don't have to waste slots on defensive buffs to keep your armour softcapped, that's a benefit right?... right?

Only slightly, because most characters can obtain some sort of skill which buffs their armor and/or spell resist by decent to insane amounts... and if that skill happens to be based on magicka with the way the game works at the moment, then it could potentially be spammable... and that leads us right back to unbalance in general between stam and magick as well as the armor sets and their passives.

You also have to consider armor enchants because they are passive and barely harm a light armor tank's itemization.

Yes, the heavy tank could use those same skills... but they afford them less effectiveness and due to the loss of the light armor passives are less likely to be able to spam said skills even if they wanted to.

I agree that heavy armor IS more mitigation than light but I don't agree that the gap between the usefulness of the different armor sets is enough or in any kind of balance.

Everything that a heavy armor tank can do, a light armor tank can also do while keeping higher dps and support at the same time with the current game mechanics and lack of necessity for high mitigation tanks on hardly any fight. Heavy armor tanks are actually giving up more than they get in return.

And I say all this having tanked both ways. I've done the light armor magicka tank and the heavy armor hybrid tank. I'm thinking about trying the medium armor stamina tank, but I haven't worked up to it yet.

It is easier to tank using light armor with an armor enchant or two and a skill or two than to use heavy armor... simply because the trade off isn't equal.

Mystborn

I dunno man, I'm pretty happy with my heavy armour tank, more healing received, much higher Armour/Mitigation, and less stamina to block.

Having said that I don't heal for a light armour tank so if I actually did I might find I prefer it!

Bashev

Mystborn wrote: »

Yes, Health Regen is part of EH, but it is so small it is negligible.

If you use Heavy armour you don't have to waste slots on defensive buffs to keep your armour softcapped, that's a benefit right?... right?

And for what skills will you use the slots? DPS with heavy armor and you will have no resources.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

One correction to the formula: It is defensive rating (armor or sr) / by enemy creature level = mitigation %.

It is not your own level but the level of the enemy hitting you.

Mystborn

Bashev wrote: »

Mystborn wrote: »

Yes, Health Regen is part of EH, but it is so small it is negligible.

If you use Heavy armour you don't have to waste slots on defensive buffs to keep your armour softcapped, that's a benefit right?... right?

And for what skills will you use the slots? DPS with heavy armor and you will have no resources.

I forget, they were all overpowered DK skills though =P

niocwy

I'm playing NB tank with heavy armor.

I was considering speccing in light armor for all the reasons said in this thread, and I may actually make that jump. I never had problem with mitigation so I guess it just will be a little harder on physical encounters ...or not.

Most of the damage seems to be spell damage anyway.

I guess if stamina/physical damage gets a rework, maybe monsters will get the buffs too. Adds to that a little buff to heavy armor and it should balance everything even more !

Or everything will stay roughly the same and I will keep on sucking in my heavy armor