Templar class problems summarized by VR12 Templar

Poxxerom

Templar class problems summarized by VR12 Templar

Let me start by saying, I play a VR12 templar. I am accompanied by my partner who also plays a VR12 templar. We are PVE focused players, who shy away from PVP, hence, my feedback will be purely based on dungeon PVE. I have played the role of Tank and DPS in dungeons, and my partner has played the role of Healer and DPS in dungeons.

Here follows our feedback:

Healing:
We have played and completed most VR dungeons (including VR1-VR10). We stopped using templar class specific healing skills after level 15 and never used them again, mostly due to cast times or expensive mana costs. The only skill from the Templar resto skill line we use is Cleanse which admittedly is a great utility tool, it also is the only thing we bring to the table that sorcerers can't match, but it is rarely used in boss fights, and it is not used in trash fights at all. Illustrious Healing (resto staff) and Rapid Regeneration (resto staff) are the healing skills we use in dungeons, and the Templar class skills, although seemlingly useful, somehow aren't useful enough to make it on to the 5-slot bar. We prefer the Resto staff skills for healing because of two reasons: The resto staff spells are mana efficient and instant cast, which becomes more important in higher VR dungeons because you are required to move almost continuously to evade dangers. We do enjoy the Templar restoration passives, however none of them really help with mana regeneration ( I believe there is a single skill that reduces the mana cost of all spells by 4%, which isn't a lot. The result is that we run out of mana most trash fights, and every boss fight. We counter that by using the heavy resto staff attacks (which regenerate 10% mana per heavy attack and by chugging mana pots as often as we can, usually every 30 seconds. The mana pots are expensive and the result is that the Templar class becomes a very expensive class to play as healer. Mostly, we are unable to use Equilibrium because losing 50% HP, and being low on hp for at least 5 seconds during a high level VR dungeon can often result in a wipe: Too many bosses and even trash groups can randomly hit healers for 50-80% hp in a single hit. The result is that for healers, at VR12, equilibrium isn't an option. I hear sorcerers have a skill called "Dark Exchange" that swaps stamina for mana. This is a much better option than swapping health for mana (Equilibrium) as having 0 stamina does not equate death, as is the case for 0 health. I plead to the developers to give us "Light Exchange" which is identical to "Dark Exchange", this would resolve our healing issues without giving us an unfair advantage over other classes. Please replace "Backlash" with "Light Exchange" for the reasons explained below.

DPS:
My VR12 templar has full epic VR11 gear including full epic jewelry and full epic weapons. Despite my pretty decent gear and high level, I only manage to do about 300 DPS on my templar at VR12. I calculated this with the help of the addon CombatLogStatistics, and compared my results against those of a VR12 sorcerer. The sorcerer pulled 700 DPS in identical gear. We both geared in full light armor, full damage passives, full bonuses, 40% crit rating, in full VR11 epic gear. I use the common Templar DPS rotation scheme: Dark Flare -> Power of the Light -> Light attack -> Rinse Repeat. I felt weak compared to the sorcerer, and couldn't explain how the sorcerer was doing so much more damage, the sorcerer mostly spammed "Crystal Shard" which on top of doing pretty decent damage, also perma-stuns the miniboss, giving enhanced survivability. I do not use equilibrium during my DPS measurements, as both classes would be able to use it anyway, effectively negating the added DPS. Also, equilibrium is not meant to be used during battle at VR12, where random damage can kill you instantly if not at 100% hp, so it isn't fair to assume a DPS is forced to use it, and thus become a liability to the group. ( If you could choose between inviting a templar DPS to the group or a sorcerer DPS to the group, would you take a templar doing little DPS and dying most of the fights, over a sorcerer doing much more DPS, stunning bosses and mobs as well as having 100% hp all the time?). I would say there is a big discrepancy in templar DPS output versus sorcerer DPS output, more than 100% difference. I have seen the templar threads but I am amazed noone has given any real DPS figures yet at VR12. I see figures of 10% , sometimes 20% difference, but my calculations point to a difference of more than 100%. The templar at 300 DPS, the sorcerer at 700 DPS under exactly the same circumstances, except for the sorcerer having more survivability due to perma-stun of mobs. I wish the developers would take an hour to create two level VR12 characters (one templar, one sorc) and test this in a test server, they will come to the same conclusion as I did : The templar DPS currently is not viable. I haven't included melee / stamina DPS options as most bosses require ranged DPS, so again it would not be fair to expect a templar to become melee, still do below-average DPS, and die most of the time due to being melee. Backlash: This skill needs to be removed completely. The problem is that it's badly designed and doesn't scale well. Yes it sounds like it's crazy DPS, but it's stealth capped to ~1500 damage and it also depends on other players' skill for DPS. In other words, this skill is only as good as other players in your group. In other words, you need a good sorcerer to be effective, and you won't ever be as effective as a sorcerer, so why take a templar? I don't get a feel of accomplishment spamming a skill that depends on other people's skills. Secondly, this skill has a horrible effect: It limits 12-man raids to ONE SINGLE templar. In a 12man raid, you can only take one DPS templar, because Backlash overwrites other templars Backlash, thus, only one templar will cause DPS. This skill needs to be replaced with "Light Exchange", the brother of "Dark Exchange". Dark Flare has a 1.5 second cast time, and is way too mana expensive. This skill needs to have it's cast time removed, and mana cost reduced by 100 mana at VR12. That would make it on par with sorcerer skills.

Tanking:
For tanking, I wear cloth and destruction staff when "tanking" VR dungeons. Heavy armor doesn't really do anything better than light armor and it's a bit of a chore to swap gear all the time, so I take on minibosses and large mobs in light armor with a destro staff, and this works better than heavy armor tanking, due to the fact I can dish out a small amount of DPS on top of tanking, taking mobs down quicker, hence less healing from our templar healer and less chance the healer runs out of mana before the mobs are dead. I used 1H and shield until bash got nerfed 60% DPS, and occasionally I still wear a shield, but I don't see the point of the shield. The single, only, useful 1H-shield skill is power bash (long stun). The problem is that bosses can't be stunned, so it's useless on bosses, and for trash groups, well I'd rather just AOE zerg the groups down in my destro staff within 5-10 seconds. I end up "tanking" in DPS spec, wearing cloth and a destruction staff and simply have "Inner Beast" on the cast bar and kite the boss. Trash gets AOE'd down with little regard to how large or dangerous the group is, the AOE takes care of them quicker than tanking would, and it's less risky to AOE them than to try and tank them. As such, I believe a sorcerer or a DK would be better at "tanking" since "tanking" becomes Kite/DPS'ing on most bosses and Sorcs and DKs are better at that than a Templar. I want to wear heavy armor, but I can't justify it. I want to wear 1H and shield, but I can't justify it.

My list of advantages of the sorcerer class over the templar class:
- Sorcerers output twice the DPS
- Sorcerers have unlimited mana, making them cheap to run in dungeons as healers
- Sorcerers don't need a 42K horse, they can teleport faster than the fastests horse
- Sorcerers have much more survivability than any other class
- Sorcerers have Bound Aegis, giving them heavy armor stats in light armor

My conclusion: Both me and my partner wish we rolled a sorcerer 2 months ago during launch. I know a lot of other templars in the guild that feel equally gutted by their class choice and their forced bench sitting. Some have rerolled DK or Sorcerer class, but I just can't bear to level another character to VR12. Currently our templars are parked, I still feed my second horse every day, and then I log out. It takes too long for us to find a good group that will take us to dungeons, and we both work so we can't afford to spend 2 hours in the queue, only to end up doing T1 dungeons at VR12 because we're unable to do the T2 dungeons as DPS.

We enjoy this game, we really do, but the templar problems are so extreme, that the class is now more unwanted in PVE than Nightblades used to be: I hear the Nightblades are getting fixed, but I haven't heard or seen anything regarding the templar getting fixed. We're not interested in PVP so the only option for us is to wait until templar gets fixed and becomes a viable choice for PVE, either because they are better healers, or better DPS, or better tanks. At this moment, sorcerers do all of those much better ( twice as well, all of those ) than templars, so if I was a raid leader I would do raids with 12 sorcerers.

I hope this message gets heard by Zenimax management. If it did, then templar will see "Light Exchange" and gets its DPS increase by 100% in patch 1.2.

Please don't turn this game into "The Elder Sorcerers online". I know developers and management reads the forums, I know you hear our pleas, I know you want to fix this, and I know you consider every post people make. Please take action now, and fix this issue before it's too late !

It is no secret that templars need a LARGE DPS increase to be considered for PVE runs (including trials at VR12), so in patch 1.2, temporarily, just reduce the mana cost of "Dark Flare" and remove the cast time of "Dark Flare" so we can spam it and at least be able to compete with sorcerers. This should just be a simple XML edit which can make it into the 1.2 patch. Then , you can run DPS comparison tests against test dummies, and balance the classes. which could be scheduled for patch 1.3. Backlash should be replaced with "Light Exchange" skill. These changes combined will solve all templar problems and make them viable in raids and PVE dungeons.
- Dark flare mana costs reduced, no cast time
- Backlash removed
- Light Exchange (similar to Dark Exchange)

Thank you for reading my wall of text.

anakaki

Don't you think they are aware that sorcs deals 800-900 single dps to our 300-400ish? Ofcourse they do. Otherwise they wouldnt have playtested the game.

No mana efficient spells, long cast times otherwise and templars I know tend to ignore our amazing restoration line? They know. It's working as intended.

Regen? Why should we have that when all the other classes get to have it?

Long cast times and low dps at high costs? Please, your doing it wrong.

Face it, templars are fine.

Ragekniv

Well said Sir!

I hope Zenimax is listening to you my brethren Templar!

wpitterlb14a_ESO

Moar. Line breaks. Pls.

Goibot

I agree with what you are saying but... that would still leave us Templars in cloth and sticks. We should be a viable class as a healer or dps in Heavy with 1H+S or 2H as well.

anakaki

Goibot wrote: »

I agree with what you are saying but... that would still leave us Templars in cloth and sticks. We should be a viable class as a healer or dps in Heavy with 1H+S or 2H as well.

I like healing. I don't want to wear panties. At least give me pants!

And yes, stamina builds is a joke so is medium/heavy.

snagallnub18_ESO

i agree the templar class is TOTALLY gimped ... i am now leveling a sorc till they address the MANY issues with my templar... they knew before release that the class was the LEAST beta tested and needed to be overhauled... the light exchange idea is the best fix ive heard so far and would be willing play my templar again..

Mortosk

Poxxerom wrote: »

Templar class problems summarized by VR12 Templar

Let me start by saying, I play a VR12 templar. I am accompanied by my partner who also plays a VR12 templar. We are PVE focused players, who shy away from PVP, hence, my feedback will be purely based on dungeon PVE. I have played the role of Tank and DPS in dungeons, and my partner has played the role of Healer and DPS in dungeons.

Here follows our feedback:

Please don't turn this game into "The Elder Sorcerers online". I know developers and management reads the forums, I know you hear our pleas, I know you want to fix this, and I know you consider every post people make. Please take action now, and fix this issue before it's too late !

It is no secret that templars need a LARGE DPS increase to be considered for PVE runs (including trials at VR12), so in patch 1.2, temporarily, just reduce the mana cost of "Dark Flare" and remove the cast time of "Dark Flare" so we can spam it and at least be able to compete with sorcerers. This should just be a simple XML edit which can make it into the 1.2 patch. Then , you can run DPS comparison tests against test dummies, and balance the classes. which could be scheduled for patch 1.3. Backlash should be replaced with "Light Exchange" skill. These changes combined will solve all templar problems and make them viable in raids and PVE dungeons.
- Dark flare mana costs reduced, no cast time
- Backlash removed
- Light Exchange (similar to Dark Exchange)

Thank you for reading my wall of text.

This is why it bothers me so much that they didn't even mention Templars in the road ahead post. Aside from apologizing for the WTF Durrr!? stealth nerf to Puncturing Strikes that they obviously never bothered to test or actually analyze any data about it (Other than maybe the % of bots that use it). Robe wearing Templars can't even compete with sorcerers, melee DPS templars are a complete and utter joke.

They only seem concerned about nightblades though. Apparently, they think it's OK to ignore Templars like we don't exist when they aren't busy stealth nerfing us for sh!ts and giggles (because nerfing Puncturing Strikes was completely nonsensical, arbitrary, and unnecessary - They should be buffing it for crying out loud - It's a 1.1 second channeled skill (Not Instant!) that doesn't even come close to competing with sorcerer abilities and already cost 300+ magicka depending on skills/armor before they tacked on another 10% cost in the latest patch).

lasma799

Magicka regen on a Templar is a PITA. They either need to reduce all magicka cost for templar skills or give them a much better magicka passive regen. Current magicka costs are ridiculous.

However, in terms of the classes, right now it's still DK (by an extremely large margin)>>>>>>>>Sorc>>>Temp>NB. DK's damage is still way over the top than any sorc or any other class with more CC's and survivability available.

Mortosk

lasma799 wrote: »

Magicka regen on a Templar is a PITA. They either need to reduce all magicka cost for templar skills or give them a much better magicka passive regen. Current magicka costs are ridiculous.

However, in terms of the classes, right now it's still DK (by an extremely large margin)>>>>>>>>Sorc>>>Temp>NB. DK's damage is still way over the top than any sorc or any other class with more CC's and survivability available.

We had magicka regen in beta, they took it away. The Templar class has been broken ever since. There was a reason that was in there in the first place. Perhaps it was too powerful and needed to be tweeked with a scalpel, but they used a sledge hammer instead. ZOS doesn't do subtle.

They should realize ALL the magicka costs were probably designed originally based on a much higher rate of magicka regenation being available, and when they took it away, they forgot to re-balance the resource costs.

nagarjunna

+1, I've parked mine till this is solved. Playing a sorceror (usual kit) and having a ball.

anakaki

nagarjunna wrote: »

+1, I've parked mine till this is solved. Playing a sorceror (usual kit) and having a ball.

I wish I had the stomach to reroll sorc healer but.. I... just... can't!
The most boring and repetative leveling content in all mmos I ever played.

Enkil

@Poxxero Great post and suggestions. I feel useless on my dps/healer Templar and regret my choice now too.. Will be leveling up a Sorc this weekend.

Sidrath

Excellent post, and I really hope ZOS does -something- for Templar DPS in the very near future. It has to be the easiest component to fix by just boosting a few coefficients in our class skills. Only VR6 here, but I can already see the DPS limitations on the horizon.

1. The best DPS I've been able to achieve so far (assuming others are hitting the target, so PotL's hit their cap of 1500) has come from Power of the Light->Light Attack->Biting Jabs->Light Attack->Biting Jabs->Light Attack -> PotL->etc. The frequent Burning Light procs (Biting Jabs' 4-hit flurry provides a very decent chance of landing a proc) combined with the decent crit rate on Biting Jabs (augmented with Inner Light IV, Thief Stone, Piercing Spear passive and Precise weapon) would typically let me reach around 500-600 DPS, but at the cost of rapidly depleting my magicka. Once I'm out of juice, the output collapses. As the OP states, better magicka regen would make a big difference. Personally I'd change Channeled Focus into the OP's proposal of Light Exchange: it already restores Magicka (even if you run out of the Focus), just make it restore vastly more, at a cost to stamina if need be.

2. To achieve competitive DPS we need a rotation of spells where each action sustains the intended output (say 800-900 single target). One of the easiest remedies for boosting PvE DPS without imbalancing PvP burst potential is usually to give a class strong Damage over Time or percentage-based Damage after Time - which is exactly the intent behind Backlash/Power of the Light. The problem is with its cap at 1500 (even if it crits, it's 1500), its 1.5s cast time and it being non-stackable, the tool they gave Templars to sustain PvE DPS *peaks* as a 700 DPS action (it actually takes just over 2s to complete the animation and move to your next action). That's incredibly bad considering a DK's Unstable Flame is a solid 1250 DPS action; you'd think a long cast, overwritable DaT conditioned on groupwide DPS should outperform that.

I'm all for the OP's proposal of Light Exchange (we need resource management, badly), but don't destroy Backlash. It's a good PvE lever, with little risk of imbalancing PvP (if you're about to eat a Backlash for 1.5k, that means you've also just eaten 4.5k of damage in the last 7.2s... and probably died a full healthbar ago!). We need more "high value GCDs" in PvE (they're not quite GCDs in ESO, but we can think of each animation window as a sort of GCD). Backlash is an easy tool for ZOS to give us a little boost in the ST DPS department: make Backlash instant and stackable by multiple Templars, and give both its morphs dramatically more oomph.

PS: I'm not suggesting the 2 changes above would be sufficient. I suspect melee suffers from uptime and survivability issues at endgame, forcing people into ranged builds deprived of Biting Jabs. The DPS per action of our entire ranged arsenal seemed pretty lacklustre... change Solar Flare to instant would help. Then increase DoT coefficient on Vampire's Bane (Sun Fire single-target morph) by 40% and make Enduring Rays (+20% ability duration) actually increase the total DoT damage rather than just dumbly spreading it thinner. Those changes should turn Vampire's Bane into a 1000 DPS ST action, which is pretty good.

Mortosk

Enkil wrote: »

@Poxxero Great post and suggestions. I feel useless on my dps/healer Templar and regret my choice now too.. Will be leveling up a Sorc this weekend.

Just in time for the impending nerf to sorcs. Perhaps they think all classes should suck as much as Templars do right now, and their vision involves nerfing everyone down to our level.

If that's really their vision, I can see one too. Empty cubicles and a For Lease sign out front at ZOS HQ.

anakaki

Mortosk wrote: »

Enkil wrote: »

@Poxxero Great post and suggestions. I feel useless on my dps/healer Templar and regret my choice now too.. Will be leveling up a Sorc this weekend.

Just in time for the impending nerf to sorcs. Perhaps they think all classes should suck as much as Templars do right now, and their vision involves nerfing everyone down to our level.

If that's really their vision, I can see one too. Empty cubicles and a For Lease sign out front at ZOS HQ.

It seems as they want nerfs. The proof of this is the lack of attention from greens. Not a single templar post, save the untested ninja nerf of jabs, has been replied to. We have no clue what their thought on templars are as they refuse to share it.

Poxxerom

Sidrath wrote: »

The best DPS I've been able to achieve so far has come from Power of the Light->Light Attack->Biting Jabs->Light Attack->Biting Jabs->Light Attack -> PotL-> Rinse repeat.

Higher level dungeons are very unfriendly to melee. In the best case, it lowers melee DPS by around 30-50% (because melee have to get out of boss AOE often, or run towards targets/add/teleported boss at range, losing DPS while running and not hitting anything) and at the very worst case melee is simply not an option ( heavy boss melee instant AOE, large red circles that combined with lag won't get melee out of boss quickly enough etc). So Biting Jabs is more often than not ineffective. I tried to touch on the PoTL problem (Backlash morph). If there was another Templar in your group casting it, one of you would not do any DPS casting it. Also, if you happen to group with a slightly less experienced DPS (say, outputting 200DPS) then you would see a huge drop in your own DPS. PoTL also has a 1.5 second cast time, and quite often I find bosses will cast some red circle below me while I cast it, forcing me to take a few hits of the DoT while I finish my cast, or interrupt my cast and dodge out of the red circle. Some bosses in higher VR content will decimate you in less than 2 seconds if you don't get out of the red circles. In short, I found that both PoTL and Biting Jabs aren't as useful in dungeons as other more competitive classes. Dark Flare has the damage potential, but it's gimped by having a 1.5 second cast time and HUGE mana cost. I would like the developers to test single target DPS output of the templar class versus the sorcerer class, without a group or party to influence our DPS output or their DPS output. In my opinion, this is the best and most fair way to balance classes.

Sidrath wrote: »

2. To achieve competitive DPS we need a rotation of spells where each action sustains the intended output (say 800-900 single target). One of the easiest remedies for boosting PvE DPS without imbalancing PvP burst potential is usually to give a class strong Damage over Time or percentage-based Damage after Time - which is exactly the intent behind Backlash/Power of the Light. The problem is with its cap at 1500 (even if it crits, it's 1500), its 1.5s cast time and it being non-stackable, the tool they gave Templars to sustain PvE DPS *peaks* as a 700 DPS action (it actually takes just over 2s to complete the animation and move to your next action). That's incredibly bad considering a DK's Unstable Flame is a solid 1200+ DPS DoT; you'd think a long cast, overwritable DaT conditioned on groupwide DPS should outperform that.

Completely agree. As stated in my post, Backlash (POTL) is completely broken at higher level VR dungeons, and I don't see any way it can be fixed. The idea was great, PVP made it almost impossible to implement, differing group sizes made it completely impossible to implement.
Backlash can only be used effectively (and it has been nerfed to match):
- In 12-man raids (you can't use it in 4-mans because it's too gimped)
- When no other templar is in the group ( another huge downside )
- When there is no ground AOE continuously spamming ( most bosses spam some sort of ground AOE you need to run out of)
Even when those above perfect conditions are true ( which honestly might happen once per month for only VR12 players doing raids, ie, less than 1% of the player base) then the skill still doesn't compete with other class skills.

Sidrath wrote: »

I'm all for the OP's proposal of Light Exchange (we need resource management, badly), but don't destroy Backlash.

Check my experience regarding backlash above. Once you hit the higher T2 dungeons, you won't be using POTL anymore. And if you enjoy PVE raids, be prepared to roll against those 2 other templars who want to come along because only one of the 3 templars will be allowed in the raid, the others will have to wait till next week. The only way Backlash would be useful is (like you stated):
- Remove cast time from Backlash
- Make it stack with other Backlash templars
- Make it gather 100% of the damage instead of 30% (so we can fill it ourselves instead of relying on someone else's DPS). This last one is important, and without it it will still be useless.
- Allow PVP'ers to purge backlashes on them (if purged, NO damage is done to them). this might fix issues with backlash + PVP. It's very easy to spot backlash on you, and it lasts a while, so it can be dispelled easily by other members of your group.

I don't see the above happening, Hence, Backlash has to be removed from the game. Templars need to get at least ONE viable RANGED DPS skill in their class line, hence my proposal to remove cast time from Dark Flare and increase Dark Flare damage output, combined with lowering the Dark Flare mana cost.

Lynx7386

We have played and completed most VR dungeons (including VR1-VR10). We stopped using templar class specific healing skills after level 15 and never used them again, mostly due to cast times or expensive mana costs. The only skill from the Templar resto skill line we use is Cleanse which admittedly is a great utility tool, it also is the only thing we bring to the table that sorcerers can't match, but it is rarely used in boss fights, and it is not used in trash fights at all

Only three of the resto staff heals are worth using in my experience (illustrious healing, blessing of protection, and force siphon - the latter of which is more pvp oriented), so what's taking up so many slots on your bar as a healing templar that prevents you from effectively using class heal skills?

I use rushed ceremony / breath of life as an emergency heal all the time, it may not be very efficient but it's far more bursty than anything else with an instant cast time, and healing 3 targets out of the 4 in your group is pretty decent.

Repentance, IMO, is one of the best skills a templar healer has in group content. When you're going through aoe packs, being able to constantly cast a -free- heal that also recharges your group's stamina is incredibly useful. The passive 15% stamina/health regen bonus isnt half bad either, though negligible compared to the active effect.

At least those two should be on your bar, IMO, and purifying light (from dawn's wrath) is a heal as well as a huge damage boost on bosses.



I do agree, however, with your suggestion to give us something equivalent to dark exchange. Magicka is always an issue for healers, especially for templar healers.

I use the common Templar DPS rotation scheme: Dark Flare -> Power of the Light -> Light attack -> Rinse Repeat.

That's a terrible rotation... Why arent you using backlash? Why are you using a light attack (presumably with a staff, considering you're set up as a caster) when staff light attacks have terrible dps due to the animation windback? if you're using a destruction staff, why arent you using force shock or impulse to keep a burning DoT up or add extra spell crit?

I'm sorry but if all you're using are those 3 things - dark flare, power of the light, and a light attack repeated over and over again, you have no one to blame for poor dps but yourself.


That said, I do agree that in general templar -sustained- damage is low compared to other classes, and our AoE damage is pretty terrible unless we use impulse (and not everyone should be forced into using a destro staff).

Backlash: This skill needs to be removed completely. The problem is that it's badly designed and doesn't scale well. Yes it sounds like it's crazy DPS, but it's stealth capped to ~1500 damage and it also depends on other players' skill for DPS. In other words, this skill is only as good as other players in your group. In other words, you need a good sorcerer to be effective, and you won't ever be as effective as a sorcerer, so why take a templar? I don't get a feel of accomplishment spamming a skill that depends on other people's skills.

It's still essentially extra, free damage.

However, I do think that if they decide to keep the soft cap on backlash they should have it automatically detonate when it reaches that limit, so that it can be used more frequently if your group is putting out enough damage.

If the stealth cap is at 1500 damage, and your group can do 4200 damage before the 7.2 second duration of the spell, backlash should detonate as soon as that 4200 damage is reached. That would allow it to scale up with your group more effectively, so you could be casting a new backlash every 3-4 seconds instead of every 8.



Anyways, your suggestion to completely remove backlash I have to disagree with. It's one of our best pvp skills right now, and it's an incredibly good skill for healing templars to add damage (and extra healing, via morphs) to the group. If any ability should be replaced by your proposed 'light exchange', it should be blinding flashes (currently useless, even for tanking templars IMO, as it doesnt effect any bosses in the game).

Dark Flare has a 1.5 second cast time, and is way too mana expensive. This skill needs to have it's cast time removed, and mana cost reduced by 100 mana at VR12. That would make it on par with sorcerer skills.

Dark flare is one of the best single target damage spells in the game. The cast time can be bothersome, sure, but that cast time keeps it balanced when it comes to pvp. We'd be demolishing other players if it were instant cast.

Backlash, on the other hand, definitely should be instant cast, as it does no up front damage and takes a long time for the damage it deals to actually take effect.

If you want an instant version of dark flare, take the other morph, but you sacrafice range and damage in exchange.

Sorcerers output twice the DPS

They're higher than us, but not that much higher. Certainly not to the point of doing "twice as much dps". As explained above this is a problem with your rotation more than it is with class balance.

- Sorcerers have unlimited mana, making them cheap to run in dungeons as healers

Again, an exagerration. Dark exchange certainly gives an advantage but it must be channeled, and time spent recovering magicka is time spent not healing. Even sorcs are better off just relying on resto staff heavy attacks for magicka regen when healing.

- Sorcerers don't need a 42K horse, they can teleport faster than the fastests horse

Except with the recent and still upcoming changes to bolt escape, they wont be able to cast it more than a few times, while you can sprint forever on a horse. It's becoming quite clear that you're simply hating on sorcs here...

- Sorcerers have much more survivability than any other class

Again, disagree. Dragonknights have better self healing and damage shields than sorcs, and every class has access to armor buffs.

- Sorcerers have Bound Aegis, giving them heavy armor stats in light armor

Sorcs have bound aegis, we have Rune focus, Nightblades have blur/shadow cloak/shadow barrier (though that they need to use 3 skills to equal what other classes get with one is an altogether different problem), and dragonknights have Spiked armor. EVERYONE has access to circle of protection, as well.

Please know the facts before you just decide to complain about an ability that has no impact on the discussion.

My conclusion: Both me and my partner wish we rolled a sorcerer 2 months ago during launch. I know a lot of other templars in the guild that feel equally gutted by their class choice and their forced bench sitting.

Perhaps you'd be better off as sorcs then. However, I bet you'll feel different when you get your new shiny sorcs to v12 and discover that they've been balanced out by the devs and arent any better.

My main was a nightblade, and now is a templar, both classes are exceptionally fun but obviously have their shortcomings and issues. I believe this is due to the fact that they both received less development and feedback time than dragonknights and sorcerors during beta (because both of them were released later on in the beta timeline). That said, I have absolutely no fun playing my dragonknight, and I've completely given up on my sorceror, they're just boring, uninspired classes IMO, and when all is said and done in a month or two down the road, it's the players who rerolled flavor of the month classes that are going to be kicking themselves.

sigsergv

Templars have pretty amazing Javelin ability, it stuns mobs and some bosses for a few seconds and have instant cast time. But that's all, unfortunately, all other words are sad true.

Veakoth

I can agree with OP's DPS portion of the post but as a healing Templar myself all i can say is your doing it entirely wrong. To be successful as a Templar healer your pretty much required to run your class a specific way, the way you explained healing is somewhat possible but your shooting yourself in the foot if you play like that.

(edit)
Also, Templar healers/tanks who know how to play will always be taken over players who don't.

Poxxerom

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I use the common Templar DPS rotation scheme: Dark Flare -> Power of the Light -> Light attack -> Rinse Repeat.

That's a terrible rotation... Why arent you using backlash?

You obviously don't play a templar or you would know that Power of the Light *IS* Backlash ( it's a morph of it ). Hence, your whole post lost credibility, I stopped reading here. Please only reply to topics that relate to your class. And please don't tell me how terrible of a player I am when you don't even play the same class. If you know a better RANGED DPS rotation, please share it, and I will test it out for you on level VR12 content.

Blud

Goibot wrote: »

I agree with what you are saying but... that would still leave us Templars in cloth and sticks. We should be a viable class as a healer or dps in Heavy with 1H+S or 2H as well.

The whole reason I rolled a templar was to wear heavy armor and tank sword and board. I even checked out the veteran armor in the character creation screen. It was heavy with a 2h axe. I thought, that looks cool. I will be a templar.

Now I am also parked at VR12 in full light armor with restro/destro. It's not what I wanted. I just use this guy for crafting and guild events. I can heal in AvA, but mostly I support and that's fine. I like spamming total dark on sorcs, heals, volcanic rune, binding javelin, etc. It's fun, but I don't know how necessary it is.

I absolutely hate pve now, especially in the VR6+ zones. I only go there for guild runs. I will no longer solo there because it only makes me rage.

I still like to play ESO, so I'm leveling another Sorc into the world until Templars get sorted. I will also play a heavy armor sword and board DK, because that's what I want to play and I hope it's more effective. I will see which is more fun. So far the Sorc is so much easier to play than the Templar.

Thank you.

Lynx7386

Poxxerom wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I use the common Templar DPS rotation scheme: Dark Flare -> Power of the Light -> Light attack -> Rinse Repeat.

That's a terrible rotation... Why arent you using backlash?

You obviously don't play a templar or you would know that Power of the Light *IS* Backlash ( it's a morph of it ). Hence, your whole post lost credibility, I stopped reading here. Please only reply to topics that relate to your class. And please don't tell me how terrible of a player I am when you don't even play the same class. If you know a better RANGED DPS rotation, please share it, and I will test it out for you on level VR12 content.

My mistake, I use purifying light and didnt recognize the other morph by name. Still, you're complaining about dark flare costing too much, but your rotation does not utilize a second spell to benefit from dark flare's damage bonus. Throw reflective light or vampire's bane in there, at the least.

Amsel_McKay

I have a VR12 Templar as well and dont seem to have the same mana regen problem you all seem to be having, but all my skill points are on mana. I have a DPS and Heal build both use restro staff.

AngryNord

anakaki wrote: »

Don't you think they are aware that sorcs deals 800-900 single dps to our 300-400ish? Ofcourse they do. Otherwise they wouldnt have playtested the game.

What?? They playtested the game??

Lynx7386

Of course they playtested the game... back when the game only had two classes. The first class revealed during beta was the dragonknight, and the second was the sorceror.

Templar and nightblade didnt come into the mix until beta was nearly over, hence why those two classes are suffering so much - they -werent- playtested like they should have been.

Inco

Great post OP! I'm also a VR12 Templar healer using Resto/Destro with 5/7 Light 2/7 Heavy and also agree with your post.

I've seen the same problems. Magicka regen is crap compared to SORC and less utilities. The NERF they hit Templars with in BETA's was supposed to have been "Fixed" they said (ZOS) like 2 months ago (Reddit article some place even).

Sorry.. I refuse to roll a SORC because ZOS can't balance for crap. My time here in game is most likely limited as the next 2 updates appear to have very little in the way of BALANCE for Templars.

rotiferuk

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

I have a VR12 Templar as well and dont seem to have the same mana regen problem you all seem to be having, but all my skill points are on mana. I have a DPS and Heal build both use restro staff.

Do you mean attribute points?

XquixoticalX

I'm almost V3 and so far I've been enjoying the hell out of my templar. I have a pretty weird build, but I've been doing fine and it works really well for me. I don't really PVP much but when I have I would say I performed somewhere in the middle of the pack. Not the star but not the dead weight.

PVE I've solo'ed all the content so far except for group dungeons. Not really the type to partner or group unless it's absolutely required.

I was happy until I read this post. Now you've got me worried about the inevitable doom that will befall me because I chose to play a templar. I guess it's not too late to start over...but I really do enjoy it. I guess I'll play it until I don't.



For the record I wear heavy armor and use 1h/shield along with resto staff and I'm a vamp. I think I only use one of the resto staff skills, because I prefer the restoring light ones. A lot of people tell me my build won't work in the future but I love it now and I'm kicking butt all over the PVE content, so I guess when that changes I'll respec and maybe even swap to cloth/stick/stick if I have to. Hell it might even be fun to adapt and try new things.

idk

nagarjunna wrote: »

+1, I've parked mine till this is solved. Playing a sorceror (usual kit) and having a ball.

I stopped solo questing with my Templar. I am really turned off of the Templar DPS but will level him up in dungeons healing. I have worked with the various damage mitigation skills we have with some success, especially the exploding shield and I also increased my spell damage, but it is not sufficient. Going solo on some of the solo quests is just plain frustrating. I have no issue with healing the VR dungeons with him, even with pugs (except when group composition is an issue).

I have been enjoying the DPS on my Sorc. VR10 Templar and VR 9 Sorc.

Soloeus

Sorcs don't have infinite mana. We have to manage mana. Our job is a little easier because of Warlock Set and a lot of sets that improve mana regen.

Your problem is that you don't have a real Stamina or Hit Point equal to the Warlock Set.

The only problem I am starting to face that you even speak of is dependency on Resto Staff healing.

I agree that Templar abilities aren't very good. Who can afford to just stand still anyway?

Resto Staff could be nerfed to lose its mana regen but would that make the situation better or worse?

The solution then is Instant Cast on the Templar spells. I also agree that you should have access to something like Dark Exchange. I personally don't use it very often.

Sorcs also don't just run around solo'ing the game like easy mode. Elite players do. Not all sorcerers are elite players and nerfing Sorcerer doesn't hurt elite players; they will just change one gold suit into another, and find the next cheese of the month to stink it up with. It only hurts casual players, which even as sorcerers are far from OP.

I have seen a lot of OP Nightblades and DK's. Not as many of them as there are sorcs but we don't have a fever of sorcs up here calling for the nerf of every other class out of spite like what you people do to sorcerers.