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Veteran Dragonstar Arena scoring is worse than before Update 6

  • Saturn
    Saturn
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    Added eight more plot points that were submitted by @Katinas :

    10056 points --- 54.9185 minutes *Originally 54m 55s*
    10065 points --- 54.8350 minutes *Originally 54m 50s*
    10154 points --- 54.1002 minutes *Originally 54m 6s*
    10285 points --- 53.0501 minutes *Originally 53m 3s*
    10459 points --- 51.6346 minutes *Originally 51m 38s*
    10587 points --- 50.6012 minutes *Originally 50m 36s*
    10714 points --- 49.5511 minutes *Originally 49m 33s*
    10839 points --- 48.5511 minutes *Originally 48m 33s*

    Unexpectedly all these high numbers steer the A value away from -123 even more.
    "Madness is a bitter mercy, perhaps, but a mercy nonetheless."

    Fire and Ice
  • Saturn
    Saturn
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    Jaerlach wrote: »
    Fwiw, 10000 requirea a time under 55m, whereas 10450 is 51:45.


    score growth slows under 60 minutes.


    Vdsa is 100% a speedrun only challenge.

    Source: have 10450 score.

    Fwiw, you can't do that kind of time with many deaths, due to the dps loss.

    As far as I can tell there are no indications that the score growth slows after if you are under 60m.

    And yes it is true that deaths matter in the time spent reviving said person and the amount of DPS you lose out on, but that still does not mean a team faster than you with more deaths won't beat your score :/
    "Madness is a bitter mercy, perhaps, but a mercy nonetheless."

    Fire and Ice
  • Garkin
    Garkin
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    Today's score was 7424, time 1:16:18.

    By the way RaidTimer works (at least for DSA), so I have uploaded it to ESOUI.
    Garkin / EU / CSF guild
    My addons: SkyShards, LoreBooks, Dustman, Map Coordinates, No, thank you, ... (full list)
    I'm taking care of: Azurah - Interface Enhanced, Srendarr - Aura, Buff & Debuff Tracker and more
    My folder with updated/modified addons: DROPBOX
  • Stamden
    Stamden
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    What the hell was wrong with time anyway?
    PC NA

    ~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~
  • Garkin
    Garkin
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    And i think for Sanctum it is 45 / 50 Mins. Don't know the Final Score yet, but will watch my recent streams to find out ;)

    Edit: Final Score for killing everything in Sanctum is 10.525 Points.

    - Final score could be higher, highest number I saw so far is 12,325.
    - Time limit for Sanctum is 30 minutes, you can figure it out from the score 1,484 - time 44:40, 12,325 raid points earned from killing.

    - The formula is correct and works for all trials, I have confirmed it with AA hard mode:
    time limit = 20:00
    time to finish = 22:32
    raid points from killing: 7,250
    hard mode bonus: 40,000

    estimated score: ((1200 - 1352) * (47,250 / 1000)) + 47,250 = (-152 * 47.25) + 47,250 = 40,068
    Final score was 40,078, so it is close enough.
    Edited by Garkin on 23 April 2015 11:21
    Garkin / EU / CSF guild
    My addons: SkyShards, LoreBooks, Dustman, Map Coordinates, No, thank you, ... (full list)
    I'm taking care of: Azurah - Interface Enhanced, Srendarr - Aura, Buff & Debuff Tracker and more
    My folder with updated/modified addons: DROPBOX
  • silentgecko
    silentgecko
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    Garkin wrote: »
    And i think for Sanctum it is 45 / 50 Mins. Don't know the Final Score yet, but will watch my recent streams to find out ;)

    Edit: Final Score for killing everything in Sanctum is 10.525 Points.

    - Final score could be higher, highest number I saw so far is 12,325.

    Maybe it is 12325 - But only if you do the Extra Archievement? I mean the Massive Troll Thing :D
    We haven''t done this Archievement yet, and 10.525 was always our Points at finishing the Serpent (instead of one time, there it was 103xx Points ^^)
    - Time limit for Sanctum is 30 minutes, you can figure it out from the score 1,484 - time 44:40, 12,325 raid points earned from killing.
    I thought you meant with time limit, that this is the Time where you get only the minimum Points you can earn, like 105 in Sanctum or 20 in DSA Vet.

    Some Examples from us:
    39:15 - 4688 Points
    1:25:17 - 105 Points
    34:14 - 7734 Points
    32:04 - 9184 Points
    1:07:22 - 105 Points
    55:07 - 105 Points
    57:01 - 105 Points

    And i Think we had a run at 44 Mins and got more than 1000 Points in the end, so my suggestion was that the Timelimit is 45 Mins.

    But i will test your Addon tonight, when we are Back in Sanctum ;-)
    Edited by silentgecko on 23 April 2015 11:29
    Guildmaster of Panic Mode! www.panic-mode.de
    Aetherian Archive Hardmode: Clear.
    Hel Ra Hardmode: Clear.
    Sanctum Ophidia Hardmode: Clear.
    Veteran Maelstrom Arena: Clear.

    VR 16 Sorcerer - V16 Nightblade
  • Garkin
    Garkin
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    Garkin wrote: »
    And i think for Sanctum it is 45 / 50 Mins. Don't know the Final Score yet, but will watch my recent streams to find out ;)

    Edit: Final Score for killing everything in Sanctum is 10.525 Points.

    - Final score could be higher, highest number I saw so far is 12,325.

    Maybe it is 12325 - But only if you do the Extra Archievement? I mean the Massive Troll Thing :D
    We haven''t done this Archievement yet, and 10.525 was always our Points at finishing the Serpent (instead of one time, there it was 103xx Points ^^)
    - Time limit for Sanctum is 30 minutes, you can figure it out from the score 1,484 - time 44:40, 12,325 raid points earned from killing.
    I thought you meant with time limit, that this is the Time where you get only the minimum Points you can earn, like 105 in Sanctum or 20 in DSA Vet.

    Some Examples from us:
    39:15 - 4688 Points
    1:25:17 - 105 Points
    34:14 - 7734 Points
    32:04 - 9184 Points
    1:07:22 - 105 Points
    55:07 - 105 Points
    57:01 - 105 Points

    And i Think we had a run at 44 Mins and got more than 1000 Points in the end, so my suggestion was that the Timelimit is 45 Mins.

    But i will test your Addon tonight, when we are Back in Sanctum ;-)
    Time limit - if you have time less then time limit, you will get bonus points equal to seconds * raid points from killing / 1000. If you time is above time limit, you will get penalty (its the same as bonus points, but it will be substracted instead of added).

    From your scores (with 30 minutes time limit):
    ((1,800 - 2,355) * (10,525 / 1,000)) + 10,525 = 4,683.625
    ((1,800 - 5,117) * (10,525 / 1,000)) + 10,525 = -24,386.425 (but can't be less then 10,525 / 100, so you will get 105)
    ((1,800 - 2,054) * (10,525 / 1,000)) + 10,525 = 7,851.65
    ((1,800 - 1,924) * (10,525 / 1,000)) + 10,525 = 9,219.9


    I have just tested some Hel Ra scores - time limit is 20 minutes, the same as for AA.

    I'll upload RaidTimer with updated numbers in a few minutes:
    http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info996-RaidTimerContinued.html
    Edited by Garkin on 23 April 2015 13:08
    Garkin / EU / CSF guild
    My addons: SkyShards, LoreBooks, Dustman, Map Coordinates, No, thank you, ... (full list)
    I'm taking care of: Azurah - Interface Enhanced, Srendarr - Aura, Buff & Debuff Tracker and more
    My folder with updated/modified addons: DROPBOX
  • idk
    idk
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    Yes, the scoring shows little thought was put into the changes which is a disappointment.
  • Saturn
    Saturn
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    Neighbor wrote: »
    What the hell was wrong with time anyway?

    Aye.. what indeed. The only upside to this new system is that a "speed run" aka under 33min completion in a trial, will now get you the achievement regardless of deaths.
    "Madness is a bitter mercy, perhaps, but a mercy nonetheless."

    Fire and Ice
  • Jaerlach
    Jaerlach
    ✭✭✭
    50:44 - 10569
    49:46 - 10688

    Jaerlach Kesepton (DK)
    The 7th Vanguard
    DC - NA first SO speed run & first Hardmode Speedrun
    NA Record Vet DSA: 11519
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Neighbor wrote: »
    What the hell was wrong with time anyway?

    Promotes reckless as opposed to skillful play.
  • Saturn
    Saturn
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    Three new scores added:

    @Garkin submitted one:
    7424 points --- 76.3006 minutes *Originally 76m 18s*

    @Jaerlach submitted two:
    10569 points --- 50.7348 minutes *Originally 50m 44s*
    10688 points --- 49.7682 minutes *Originally 49m 46s*

    A value continues to drop, this time from -122.9292 to -122.9268.
    "Madness is a bitter mercy, perhaps, but a mercy nonetheless."

    Fire and Ice
  • Zapzarap
    Zapzarap
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    Garkin wrote: »
    I can add it to the RaidTimer, but just for DSA and AA, I do not have numbers for Hel Ra and Sanctum Ophidia.

    FOR SIENCE!
    I have here some "old" data form Hel Ra and Sanctum which I found on screenshots^^

    Hel Ra:
    Score before: 6880
    • Final Score: 8615 --- Total Time: 15:48
    • Final Score: 9212 --- Total Time: 14:21

    Sanctum:
    Score before: 10475
    • Final Score: 5103 --- Total Time: 38:35
    • Final Score: 104 --- Total Time: 58:43

    Let's do some calculation from what we already know

    AA
    9764 points, time 14:22 - (1200 - 862 = 338 * 7.3 = 2467.4 + 7300 = 9767,4)

    Let's say: Hel Ra max time is also 20 min
    [*] Final Score: 8615 --- Total Time: 15:48 - ( 1200 - 948 = 252 * 6.88 = 1733.76 + 6880 = 8613.76
    [*] Final Score: 9212 --- Total Time: 14:21 ... with the same equation = 9212.32

    Let's use the same one for Sanctum with a max time of 30 minutes
    [*] Final Score: 5103 --- Total Time: 38:35 - ( 1800 - 2315 = -515 * 10.475 = -5394.625 + 10475 = 5080
    [*] Final Score: 104 --- Total Time: 58:43 ... with the same equation = -7573.425 (seems to be an error :P )

    I only found this 4 results... Hel Ra seems to work, Sanctum also kind of... more data would be nice :)


    EDIT: Haha, startet this like more than 2h ago^^ Finally I posted it and you already have your data :P
    Edited by Zapzarap on 23 April 2015 18:41
    Rolle: Tank
    Gilde: eXceed-Gaming
    Youtube: Zapzarap

    Craglorn: vAA HM, vHR HM, vSO HM
    DLC: vMOL HM, vHoF HM, vAS (+2), vCR (+3), vSS HM
    Tick-Tock Tormentor // Immortal Redeemer // Gryphon Heart
  • Jaerlach
    Jaerlach
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    Neighbor wrote: »
    What the hell was wrong with time anyway?

    Promotes reckless as opposed to skillful play.

    This is misleading. To have the best time you cannot afford dps lost due to deaths. Our 49:46 had two deaths and would have been the NA top tIme without them. Its very rare that a death doesn't cost 15 to 20 seconds of dps loss.

    That deaths are not excessively penalized encourages exciting play and calculated risktaking. To catch the 11k time posted on the EU leaderboards, my group will have to try some higher risk, higher reward strategies. You canot have a sub 50 minute run just by playing the instance with great dps.

    Jaerlach Kesepton (DK)
    The 7th Vanguard
    DC - NA first SO speed run & first Hardmode Speedrun
    NA Record Vet DSA: 11519
  • Saturn
    Saturn
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    Jaerlach wrote: »
    Neighbor wrote: »
    What the hell was wrong with time anyway?

    Promotes reckless as opposed to skillful play.

    This is misleading. To have the best time you cannot afford dps lost due to deaths. Our 49:46 had two deaths and would have been the NA top tIme without them. Its very rare that a death doesn't cost 15 to 20 seconds of dps loss.

    That deaths are not excessively penalized encourages exciting play and calculated risktaking. To catch the 11k time posted on the EU leaderboards, my group will have to try some higher risk, higher reward strategies. You canot have a sub 50 minute run just by playing the instance with great dps.

    To catch the nr.1 EU you will need more CPs :p
    "Madness is a bitter mercy, perhaps, but a mercy nonetheless."

    Fire and Ice
  • Katinas
    Katinas
    ✭✭✭✭
    Jaerlach wrote: »
    This is misleading. To have the best time you cannot afford dps lost due to deaths. Our 49:46 had two deaths and would have been the NA top tIme without them. Its very rare that a death doesn't cost 15 to 20 seconds of dps loss.

    That deaths are not excessively penalized encourages exciting play and calculated risktaking. To catch the 11k time posted on the EU leaderboards, my group will have to try some higher risk, higher reward strategies. You canot have a sub 50 minute run just by playing the instance with great dps.
    The deaths are not penalized in terms of flat points reduction, of that you can be sure. But yes, every dead person deals zero dps and someone who is resurrecting is also not doing dps. That means group loses time but you do not get a death penalty as such. We did 49min 35sec today and the score was 10.711 with two careless deaths. And yes, dps alone is not enough. Some of the tactics we use we could not have executed in 1.5, they would have been far too extreme at the time.
    By the way, I'm happy to say the addon works perfectly! Two DSA runs provided 100% accurate results to the ones that the game shows after completion.Screenshot_20150423_231158.jpg
    Edited by Katinas on 23 April 2015 21:35
  • Nerio
    Nerio
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    Neighbor wrote: »
    What the hell was wrong with time anyway?

    Promotes reckless as opposed to skillful play.

    Sounds like it promotes being skillfully reckless. Even if deaths don't matter for the score, you naturally add time to a run when someone dies. If time is the only factor, the best runs will be those where people are squeezing out every possibly point of damage while avoiding death.
  • Ygaer
    Ygaer
    Good thread, love the analysis, very sad to see the formula is something so simple. Without a doubt the highest possible score should be those that go very fast without dying. I do disagree that 56m50s 10 deaths beats 57m0s no deaths though. I guess that would be too complicated for them to try and implement.

    At the same time, it's nice running trials/vet DSA and not resetting every time someone dies because it adds 5m to your score :P We can now rest pretty easily knowing that the only thing we lose when someone dies is their contribution to the raid, and not any modification to the score.
    Ygaer Meister - AD
  • Saturn
    Saturn
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    Ygaer wrote: »
    Good thread, love the analysis, very sad to see the formula is something so simple. Without a doubt the highest possible score should be those that go very fast without dying. I do disagree that 56m50s 10 deaths beats 57m0s no deaths though. I guess that would be too complicated for them to try and implement.

    At the same time, it's nice running trials/vet DSA and not resetting every time someone dies because it adds 5m to your score :P We can now rest pretty easily knowing that the only thing we lose when someone dies is their contribution to the raid, and not any modification to the score.

    I don't think it would be too difficult to implement. Personally I think it could be changed in one of two ways:
    A - Give a team with no deaths a big score bonus and a minor bonus to a team with less than 5 deaths
    or
    B - Make a death worth -100 points

    Either of the two would help with the marathon sprinting we are seeing at the moment, at least to a degree, so that people would want to be cautious. I doubt Zenimax put too much thought into the current system as they intended to stop the "Skip adds and sprint to final boss" runs that were done pre 1.6, but the way they handled it with this new system is just weird and goes against that intention.
    Edited by Saturn on 24 April 2015 13:08
    "Madness is a bitter mercy, perhaps, but a mercy nonetheless."

    Fire and Ice
  • Ygaer
    Ygaer
    I was being cheeky when I said it'd be too complicated, sarcasm doesn't come through text so well :P
    Ygaer Meister - AD
  • Zapzarap
    Zapzarap
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    Ygaer wrote: »
    I was being cheeky when I said it'd be too complicated, sarcasm doesn't come through text so well :P

    No, you are actually right... It's to complicated for them ;) Just take a look at the leaderboard... they are unable to fix this bug with all the "0" in there... and plz support don't tell me eighter "please deactivate all your addons" or "where and when does this bug happen?"
    Rolle: Tank
    Gilde: eXceed-Gaming
    Youtube: Zapzarap

    Craglorn: vAA HM, vHR HM, vSO HM
    DLC: vMOL HM, vHoF HM, vAS (+2), vCR (+3), vSS HM
    Tick-Tock Tormentor // Immortal Redeemer // Gryphon Heart
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Jaerlach wrote: »
    Neighbor wrote: »
    What the hell was wrong with time anyway?

    Promotes reckless as opposed to skillful play.

    This is misleading. To have the best time you cannot afford dps lost due to deaths. Our 49:46 had two deaths and would have been the NA top tIme without them. Its very rare that a death doesn't cost 15 to 20 seconds of dps loss.

    That deaths are not excessively penalized encourages exciting play and calculated risktaking. To catch the 11k time posted on the EU leaderboards, my group will have to try some higher risk, higher reward strategies. You canot have a sub 50 minute run just by playing the instance with great dps.

    I understand that. But I am of the opinion that a 15 second DPS loss by one member is not an equitable penalty for someone dying. I do not think a 50 minute time with 10 deaths should beat a 60 minute time with no deaths. This doesn't mean I thought that a 5 minute penalty in the 1.5 system was good. It means I dislike the new overly simplified system where you get points for killing bosses each round (really? Was there a way to get to Round 4 without defeating all the enemies in Round 3?) and is only based on time.
  • Saturn
    Saturn
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    Jaerlach wrote: »
    Neighbor wrote: »
    What the hell was wrong with time anyway?

    Promotes reckless as opposed to skillful play.

    This is misleading. To have the best time you cannot afford dps lost due to deaths. Our 49:46 had two deaths and would have been the NA top tIme without them. Its very rare that a death doesn't cost 15 to 20 seconds of dps loss.

    That deaths are not excessively penalized encourages exciting play and calculated risktaking. To catch the 11k time posted on the EU leaderboards, my group will have to try some higher risk, higher reward strategies. You canot have a sub 50 minute run just by playing the instance with great dps.

    I understand that. But I am of the opinion that a 15 second DPS loss by one member is not an equitable penalty for someone dying. I do not think a 50 minute time with 10 deaths should beat a 60 minute time with no deaths. This doesn't mean I thought that a 5 minute penalty in the 1.5 system was good. It means I dislike the new overly simplified system where you get points for killing bosses each round (really? Was there a way to get to Round 4 without defeating all the enemies in Round 3?) and is only based on time.

    To be honest the kill points per round thing in vDSA is just a proof of how lazy the system implementation is. The kill points were made for the 12-man Trials to encourage players to kill everything. To my knowledge it is impossible to skip enemies in vDSA, which makes it nonsensical.

    I agree that a 5 min penalty per death is a lot, but for a skill-based leaderboard it did truly separate the good from the really good. Looking at the leaderboards now just makes me cringe as I know a lot of the top ranking players are not what I would personally call "really good" players, but they have just figured out how to stand in one specific spot and spam their hardest hitting abilities that kill everything quickly..

    And while @Jaerlach makes a point, it does not mean that @ZOS should not implement a proper score system for vDSA.

    Also, another problem I have been informed about is the fact that people who exploited the "infinite Enlightenment" bug early on are now rocking the leaderboards because of the advantage they are getting from the lead in CPs that they have over other people, who did not exploit it.

    Hopefully ZOS will put a new 4-man challenge dungeon in the game in the near future, as vDSA has now been out for so long that everybody knows everything about it, i.e. best spots to stand in, best tactics, etc., which severely diminishes the difficulty of the entire thing. And perhaps ZOS will this time not make a boss like Hiath, where RNG is a mechanic to rely on *cough* nova ontop of self + pull in *cough*.
    "Madness is a bitter mercy, perhaps, but a mercy nonetheless."

    Fire and Ice
  • Saturn
    Saturn
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    Ygaer wrote: »
    I was being cheeky when I said it'd be too complicated, sarcasm doesn't come through text so well :P

    Ah yeah it doesn't :/ I usually do something like this:

    **WARNING! SARCASM ALERT! WARNING!**
    "Madness is a bitter mercy, perhaps, but a mercy nonetheless."

    Fire and Ice
  • Garkin
    Garkin
    ✭✭✭
    Zapzarap wrote: »
    Ygaer wrote: »
    I was being cheeky when I said it'd be too complicated, sarcasm doesn't come through text so well :P

    No, you are actually right... It's to complicated for them ;) Just take a look at the leaderboard... they are unable to fix this bug with all the "0" in there... and plz support don't tell me eighter "please deactivate all your addons" or "where and when does this bug happen?"

    One line of code to fix the issue:
    ZO_PreHook(ZO_LeaderboardsManager_Shared, "SetupLeaderboardPlayerEntry", function(self, control, data) if data.rank == 0 then data.rank = "" end end)
    
    Garkin / EU / CSF guild
    My addons: SkyShards, LoreBooks, Dustman, Map Coordinates, No, thank you, ... (full list)
    I'm taking care of: Azurah - Interface Enhanced, Srendarr - Aura, Buff & Debuff Tracker and more
    My folder with updated/modified addons: DROPBOX
  • Zapzarap
    Zapzarap
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    Garkin wrote: »
    One line of code to fix the issue:
    ZO_PreHook(ZO_LeaderboardsManager_Shared, "SetupLeaderboardPlayerEntry", function(self, control, data) if data.rank == 0 then data.rank = "" end end)
    

    please don't tell me that we reached the point where addons are fixing bugs in game... would be very sad...
    Rolle: Tank
    Gilde: eXceed-Gaming
    Youtube: Zapzarap

    Craglorn: vAA HM, vHR HM, vSO HM
    DLC: vMOL HM, vHoF HM, vAS (+2), vCR (+3), vSS HM
    Tick-Tock Tormentor // Immortal Redeemer // Gryphon Heart
  • Valymer
    Valymer
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    Zapzarap wrote: »
    Garkin wrote: »
    One line of code to fix the issue:
    ZO_PreHook(ZO_LeaderboardsManager_Shared, "SetupLeaderboardPlayerEntry", function(self, control, data) if data.rank == 0 then data.rank = "" end end)
    

    please don't tell me that we reached the point where addons are fixing bugs in game... would be very sad...

    Pretty much been that way since launch
  • Rune_Relic
    Rune_Relic
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    Perhaps you should argue about the value of deaths.
    What penalty should death bring.. exactly ?
    Should time based leader boards simply include number of deaths and let you argue about what that means ?
    As opposed to ZOS create a formula that some think are too penalising and some think don't penalise enough.
    I mean if you cant come to a concensus.... how could ZOS ever make a formula you would be happy with ?
    Edited by Rune_Relic on 25 April 2015 13:45
    Anything that can be exploited will be exploited
  • xherics
    xherics
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    THERE IS NO FORMULA! as ZOS said! They did not change anything, just changed the already known time based system to points, but the score giving thing is still the time.

    In DSA: 2050 points for killing everything and bonus points for TIME!

    The addon what @Garkin created for us is working like a charm; all the time it gives concrete and final points status - Thank you man for your work!

    In all Trials: Deaths are not counted anyways, death is just time waste.
    Edited by xherics on 25 April 2015 16:04
    Guild: HODOR - EU - Ebonheart Pact
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    Pure magic from the heart, through the blood, to the last hairbreadth...
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    19.02.2015 - Sorcerers, we have a new hope!
  • alkoriak
    alkoriak
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    A death cannot be given a fixed value as penalty since it can be a "choice" from the players to go quicker. Example in the last seconds of a stage a healer will focus on dps at the risks of loosing one team member but assuring this way a better time that if he needed to also protect and heal allies at this moment. Just an example among others where a death doesnt mean less skill.
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