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The dark secrets of P2W...
Betahkiin
✭✭✭✭
This is a subject for intensive discussions on the forums of any video game.
For me, winning in this kind of video games is fun.
I like the exploration, discovering new things, have options that slightly alter the story line, feeling that my character is gradually increasing its power, participate in informal and spontaneous group events where the main objective is to help each other and not establish elitist barriers of performance where those who do not meet certain standards are left aside.
To access to all of these gaming experiences, i need to pay.
A single payment in the case of wanting to live these experiences with limited content (initial purchase of the game).
Several payment or a monthly subscription to secure the extension of such gaming experiences to all possible contents (individual purchase of future DLC or a subscription that guarantees its acquisition more certain benefits).
In all cases, to feel that I'm winning, I have to pay and I agree to do so.
You can not expect access to a luxury good (since this is not about consumption of basic need to survive) involving investment and dedication for free.
Now, considering what many others often call win, well, I think the pay may be acceptable.
Why?
First we see that refer these people to win:
¨Being the most powerful character, best of all in game¨
Now considering this premise and remembering that this is a luxury (entertainment-oriented private service) which gives the option to play for free, it is not illogical to think that those who access to pay (being this optional) acquire more power to those they decided to play for free.
In short, all those who choose to play for free, they do at the expense of those who pay.
A service that can be considered a luxury, is not financed with good intentions.
When the power of a character is measured never takes into account the time spent and the mechanical used by the user to achieve.
In many cases, those who make it, to the end have much free time and at times incur in faults as the use of game content to achieve.
Then, a factor as free time, which is external to the game itself may be an imbalance, but money does not?
A user who has an extreme amount of time has the right to be better than someone who has little time but with money to pay?
Both qualities are unrelated to the product, any belongs to the game, each one is independent and unique to each individual, but one is well regarded and other widely rejected.
I have enough experience in the gaming world to know that 24 hours sitting at the computer can be very favorable in achieving a powerful character against someone who may only play one hour daily.
Why, someone who has and invests much time can be better?
Why, someone who has and invests a lot of money can not be?
If you are against allowing the money to be influential, then being ethically consistent, they should ask the same about the amount of time a player can devote daily to his character.
Then, no external factor may favor the evolution of a character, only the ability of each individual on equitable terms.
As you know it is something that will never happen, so, back to what was said earlier.
If you want to be the best in a service that can be considered a luxury and we all know it exists because of the collection of money, then put money.
Greetings!
Edit: Title name, by suggestion of ZOS_AlanG
Edited by Betahkiin on 23 March 2015 15:18 For me, winning in this kind of video games is fun.
I like the exploration, discovering new things, have options that slightly alter the story line, feeling that my character is gradually increasing its power, participate in informal and spontaneous group events where the main objective is to help each other and not establish elitist barriers of performance where those who do not meet certain standards are left aside.
To access to all of these gaming experiences, i need to pay.
A single payment in the case of wanting to live these experiences with limited content (initial purchase of the game).
Several payment or a monthly subscription to secure the extension of such gaming experiences to all possible contents (individual purchase of future DLC or a subscription that guarantees its acquisition more certain benefits).
In all cases, to feel that I'm winning, I have to pay and I agree to do so.
You can not expect access to a luxury good (since this is not about consumption of basic need to survive) involving investment and dedication for free.
Now, considering what many others often call win, well, I think the pay may be acceptable.
Why?
First we see that refer these people to win:
¨Being the most powerful character, best of all in game¨
Now considering this premise and remembering that this is a luxury (entertainment-oriented private service) which gives the option to play for free, it is not illogical to think that those who access to pay (being this optional) acquire more power to those they decided to play for free.
In short, all those who choose to play for free, they do at the expense of those who pay.
A service that can be considered a luxury, is not financed with good intentions.
When the power of a character is measured never takes into account the time spent and the mechanical used by the user to achieve.
In many cases, those who make it, to the end have much free time and at times incur in faults as the use of game content to achieve.
Then, a factor as free time, which is external to the game itself may be an imbalance, but money does not?
A user who has an extreme amount of time has the right to be better than someone who has little time but with money to pay?
Both qualities are unrelated to the product, any belongs to the game, each one is independent and unique to each individual, but one is well regarded and other widely rejected.
I have enough experience in the gaming world to know that 24 hours sitting at the computer can be very favorable in achieving a powerful character against someone who may only play one hour daily.
Why, someone who has and invests much time can be better?
Why, someone who has and invests a lot of money can not be?
If you are against allowing the money to be influential, then being ethically consistent, they should ask the same about the amount of time a player can devote daily to his character.
Then, no external factor may favor the evolution of a character, only the ability of each individual on equitable terms.
As you know it is something that will never happen, so, back to what was said earlier.
If you want to be the best in a service that can be considered a luxury and we all know it exists because of the collection of money, then put money.
Greetings!
Edit: Title name, by suggestion of ZOS_AlanG
9
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rynth✭✭✭✭✭This is reason why do boosts are okay. I mean zos or any mmo have to be able to carter the casual gamers to hard core gamers with lots of time to play if they so choose. There is nothing wrong with the casual gamer who perhaps because of work or other rl issues can't play as much as others. Not to mention the money that is gained by company for players paying for a xp booster help keep game content coming and supporting the game.When asked what he would do for a Klondike bar. Grand Moff Tarkin said "why I would blow up Alderaan."4 -
Ley✭✭✭✭✭
✭If exp pots are p2w, then people who have more than 2 hours a day to spend playing eso should stop gaining benefits after those 2 hours expire. How's that for fair?
I'm joking of course.Leylith - MagSorc | Leyloth - StamPlar | Leynerd - MagPlar | Leylit - StamBlade | Ley Eviticus - StamDK | Leydor - MagDen | Leylum - StamSorc | Leylux - MagBlade10 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭This is reason why do boosts are okay. I mean zos or any mmo have to be able to carter the casual gamers to hard core gamers with lots of time to play if they so choose. There is nothing wrong with the casual gamer who perhaps because of work or other rl issues can't play as much as others. Not to mention the money that is gained by company for players paying for a xp booster help keep game content coming and supporting the game.
If a user can use their free time to highlight, then others also have the right to use money to do so.
Some will say, I have no money to invest.
But then what about those who do not have time to invest?
Generally to users do not have time, other users often say they engaged in something else or just not play.
Well, this premise also be applied to those who do not invest money, engage yourself in something else or do not play.
You want to touch the sky with your hands?
You want to play in the first league?
Perfect, knowing that this game is not financed with air, to the great experience, ability and skill you have as player join the economic investment, and ready to be the best.3 -
Majic✭✭✭✭✭The Real P2W Conspiracy
Conspicuously missing from this apologia: the Illuminati, Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations, the Black Pope, the Rothschilds, Knights Templar, Majestic 12, Communitarians, Vril Society, New World Order, Freemasons, Masih ad-Dajjal, Prometheus Society, Carlyle Group, Temple Of Dagon, FEMA, New Atlanteans, Opus Dei, HAARP, the Golden Dawn, Big Oil, Antarctic Nazis, Rosicrucians, Black Hand, Phoebus Cartel, Great Old Ones, Hashshashin, Rigelians, Knights of the Golden Circle, Big Green, the Order of the Skull and Bones, Halliburton, Beta Reticuloids and Things Man Was Not Meant To Know.
What do they all have in common? They pay to win. That is how they control every campaign in Cyrodiil in both NA and the EU through their Council of 3600, wield the Unstoppable Lag Of Doom and pwn mere mortals like you and me without ever needing to lift a finger.
Coincidence? I think not.Epopt Of The Everspinning Logo, Church Of The Eternal Loading Screen
And verily, verily, spaketh the Lord: "Error <<1>>"6 -
Dazin93✭✭✭✭Bottom line, if some people truly only care about skill then they should play a moba instead of a mmo. There are too many non skill based factors that can significantly affect character power in a mmo and that's just a fact of the genre.0
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Betahkiin✭✭✭✭If exp pots are p2w, then people who have more than 2 hours a day to spend playing eso should stop gaining benefits after those 2 hours expire. How's that for fair?
I'm joking of course.
That's the point.
He who has too much free time always going to have an unassailable advantage over those without.
Potions as you mention never be able to compete against the abundance of free time.
Even if they sell end content armor and weapons in the crown store, in the PvE field does not affect to anyone because it is a cooperative sphere, and in the PvP field, users having more time to play, besides having the option to pay (which would be nothing perverse as it is a private luxury service and requires ongoing maintenance) will always have an advantage because they will have identic armor and weapon but a lot more practice using the class and greater amount of vested benefits within the game (CP, Attributes, Skills enabled, Skill morph, etc).
The only ones affected by the payment system to win are those who have little time and do not have (or unwilling) to invest money.
But these users will never be able to aspire to be the best because even with no the P2W, who have much free time, they will always be on top.3 -
Ley✭✭✭✭✭
✭If exp pots are p2w, then people who have more than 2 hours a day to spend playing eso should stop gaining benefits after those 2 hours expire. How's that for fair?
I'm joking of course.
That's the point.
He who has too much free time always going to have an unassailable advantage over those without.
Potions as you mention never be able to compete against the abundance of free time.
Even if they sell end content armor and weapons in the crown store, in the PvE field does not affect to anyone because it is a cooperative sphere, and in the PvP field, users having more time to play, besides having the option to pay (which would be nothing perverse as it is a private luxury service and requires ongoing maintenance) will always have an advantage because they will have identic armor and weapon but a lot more practice using the class and greater amount of vested benefits within the game (CP, Attributes, Skills enabled, Skill morph, etc).
The only ones affected by the payment system to win are those who have little time and do not have (or unwilling) to invest money.
But these users will never be able to aspire to be the best because even with no the P2W, who have much free time, they will always be on top.
I know and just to be clear I was agreeing with you; I think you put your point across very well. I just didn't want people to think I wanted everyone to stop gaining benefits after 2 hours of game play.Leylith - MagSorc | Leyloth - StamPlar | Leynerd - MagPlar | Leylit - StamBlade | Ley Eviticus - StamDK | Leydor - MagDen | Leylum - StamSorc | Leylux - MagBlade0 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭Bottom line, if some people truly only care about skill then they should play a moba instead of a mmo. There are too many non skill based factors that can significantly affect character power in a mmo and that's just a fact of the genre.
Another truth.
We can go further.
No setting is truly fair and competitive if they are not given certain equalities field for all participants.
If you seek fairness and competitiveness, the only place is an organized tournament where all participants have the same technologies.
In an MMORPG like TESO, influenced by factors such as:
Server connection type (local, international, ADSL, broadband, fiber optic, etc).
Type computer (motherboard, memory, video card, processor, power, cooling type, type of disk, keyboard, mouse, pad, monitor, etc).
These conditions can be a very important factor when looking competitiveness.
FPS?
Latency?
And if all this depends on money.
Many users ask that the money does not become a factor of advantage but play with latencies below 20 and over 200 FPS in high-end computers and connections of high quality.
And users who have latencies of 300 and no greater than 50 FPS?
The money does not affect its performance?
There is no equitable competitive playing a MMORPG.
The only thing that exists is the fun.
Greetings!3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You are missing a crucial point here:
There are also people who play a lot and pay a lot.
When these elements of P2W appears, it ruins the game for the whole demographic who plays a lot, but is unwilling to throw in thousands of $$$.
Meanwhile, you give the casual people who don't play much the illusion they can catch up.
The real winners are the Credit Card Warriors, who play 16 hours a day chugging potions.
I don't care about other people catching up to me, that's ok.
But if they can surpass me & win, because on top of playing as much as I do they drink potions non-stop and gain 50% more, that's simply wrong and I can't see how someone wouldn't consider it P2W.Edited by DDuke on 23 March 2015 04:088 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭If exp pots are p2w, then people who have more than 2 hours a day to spend playing eso should stop gaining benefits after those 2 hours expire. How's that for fair?
I'm joking of course.
That's the point.
He who has too much free time always going to have an unassailable advantage over those without.
Potions as you mention never be able to compete against the abundance of free time.
Even if they sell end content armor and weapons in the crown store, in the PvE field does not affect to anyone because it is a cooperative sphere, and in the PvP field, users having more time to play, besides having the option to pay (which would be nothing perverse as it is a private luxury service and requires ongoing maintenance) will always have an advantage because they will have identic armor and weapon but a lot more practice using the class and greater amount of vested benefits within the game (CP, Attributes, Skills enabled, Skill morph, etc).
The only ones affected by the payment system to win are those who have little time and do not have (or unwilling) to invest money.
But these users will never be able to aspire to be the best because even with no the P2W, who have much free time, they will always be on top.
I know and just to be clear I was agreeing with you; I think you put your point across very well. I just didn't want people to think I wanted everyone to stop gaining benefits after 2 hours of game play.
I know (you was agreeing whit me).
I just extend a little more on the topic
0 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.6 -
Ley✭✭✭✭✭
✭You are missing a crucial point here:
There are also people who play a lot and pay a lot.
When these elements of P2W appears, it ruins the game for the whole demographic who plays a lot, but is unwilling to throw in thousands of $$$.
Meanwhile, you give the casual people who don't play much the illusion they can catch up.
The real winners are the Credit Card Warriors, who play 16 hours a day chugging potions.
I don't care about other people catching up to me, that's ok.
But if they can surpass me & win, because on top of playing as much as I do they drink potions non-stop and gain 50% more, that's simply wrong and I can't see how someone wouldn't consider it P2W.
I would counter with something but I've already said what I had to say to you on the topic and you refuse to accept it as a valid opinion. Why bother when anyone whose opinion differs from yours is a noob or being ignorant.Edited by Ley on 23 March 2015 04:29Leylith - MagSorc | Leyloth - StamPlar | Leynerd - MagPlar | Leylit - StamBlade | Ley Eviticus - StamDK | Leydor - MagDen | Leylum - StamSorc | Leylux - MagBlade1 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭You are missing a crucial point here:
There are also people who play a lot and pay a lot.
When these elements of P2W appears, it ruins the game for the whole demographic who plays a lot, but is unwilling to throw in thousands of $$$.
Meanwhile, you give the casual people who don't play much the illusion they can catch up.
The real winners are the Credit Card Warriors, who play 16 hours a day chugging potions.
I don't care about other people catching up to me, that's ok.
But if they can surpass me & win, because on top of playing as much as I do they drink potions non-stop and gain 50% more, that's simply wrong and I can't see how someone wouldn't consider it P2W.
Maybe because as we explain in another post is not fair that players with a last generation computer, and last generation connection play with latencies less than 20 and more than 200 FPS while others suffer latencies of more than 300 and not exceed 50 PS .
In this case it is also money that affects performance, however nobody questions.
For that reason, a user can spend thousands of dollars to renovate the computer and pay for the best cable service to get better performance and not others?
That whether or not P2W not affect reality in an MMORPG, there is no equity and fair competition.
The only scenario just is that of a tournament.
Beyond that, there is no equity or equality for anyone.1 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
3 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭All that can put ZOS in sale is not to seek fairness or balance to casual gamers regarding hardcore.
It's just to make it bearable casual gaming experience and enhance the hardcore.
It is impossible to speak of balance and equality for all before mentioned.
With or without P2W, balance, fairness, justice and equal, simply does not exist.
Too many variables beyond ZOS affect competitiveness.
Incorporate objects for money is a good thing for anyone who agrees to pay, and again, considering we're talking about a private luxury service (not vitally necessary) that the money invested allow an improvement for the user, to my it is correct.
The day I want measured my power againt someone to determine skill or performance and want to devote the best at something, that day I scored in a professional tournament and not a MMORPG.2 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
The petty arguments you are all using rely on the external instead of what REALLY matters and thats the internal elements of a game.Edited by Hortator Mopa on 23 March 2015 04:468 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
A last generation computer and internet connection are external things that directly affect the speed of information management video game which decides who hits and who does not.
The speed of data transfer and graphics processing affects everything related to the ingame.
Not only affects ingame things, affects the whole game completely.
Money invested in the store is something external, which can affect something within the game.
I see no difference, even I see much more advantageous to having better equipment.
In your opinion, who has more money to spend on the computer and the connection, is clearly paying to win and it's something you'll never be able to handle.
3 -
Spottswoode✭✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
A last generation computer and internet connection are external things that directly affect the speed of information management video game which decides who hits and who does not.
The speed of data transfer and graphics processing affects everything related to the ingame.
Not only affects ingame things, affects the whole game completely.
Money invested in the store is something external, which can affect something within the game.
I see no difference, even I see much more advantageous to having better equipment.
In your opinion, who has more money to spend on the computer and the connection, is clearly paying to win and it's something you'll never be able to handle.
People being able to buy better equipment irl is irrelevant to this equation. ZOS deliberately selling advantages is the crux of the discussion.Proud Player of The Elder Bank Screen Online.
My khajiit loves his moon sugar.
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Current main PC build:
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Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
A last generation computer and internet connection are external things that directly affect the speed of information management video game which decides who hits and who does not.
The speed of data transfer and graphics processing affects everything related to the ingame.
Not only affects ingame things, affects the whole game completely.
Money invested in the store is something external, which can affect something within the game.
I see no difference, even I see much more advantageous to having better equipment.
In your opinion, who has more money to spend on the computer and the connection, is clearly paying to win and it's something you'll never be able to handle.
You are relating this so badly its funny...
P2w is a in game element to a game. When you talk about pay to win it should be taken as a element of the game. So why are you bringing in other elements from the real world?
The reason "time" is not seen as pay to win is because it is a external source that helps a player be better. Just like "paying for training" and "paying for a better computer" is a external resource that isnt a in game element and thus should be treated as a outside source. LOGICALLY.
The reason people are thinking that exp potions are p2w is because it is a in game element that can progress others faster then others.
You are comparing apples and oranges like you are some smart lawyer when in fact you are blindly trying to put two and two together to make a case when they don't relate.
YOUR EXAMPLE
"Something something blah blah someone with better ping is better etc"
If in the crown store you could buy better connection which would allow the server to connect you better then yes that would be pay to win as its a internal element of the game. However as the connection is external and not governed by the game it is not p2w.
Edited by Hortator Mopa on 23 March 2015 05:025 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭Spottswoode wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
A last generation computer and internet connection are external things that directly affect the speed of information management video game which decides who hits and who does not.
The speed of data transfer and graphics processing affects everything related to the ingame.
Not only affects ingame things, affects the whole game completely.
Money invested in the store is something external, which can affect something within the game.
I see no difference, even I see much more advantageous to having better equipment.
In your opinion, who has more money to spend on the computer and the connection, is clearly paying to win and it's something you'll never be able to handle.
People being able to buy better equipment irl is irrelevant to this equation. ZOS deliberately selling advantages is the crux of the discussion.
Yea he is trying to relate a apple to a orange.Edited by Hortator Mopa on 23 March 2015 05:071 -
ShirleyShine✭✭✭I'm probably missing something important here, but my two cents worth is that no matter what I could buy in the store I would still be rubbish if I did not put in the play time to make the most of my character and figure out the best way to use the skills.
That said, it is my first and only MMO so I guess I miss a lot of what is meant.
The only thing I've found in the crown store are the repair kits that fix all. I usually make a repair run to a town, but if I had had some of those at times during quests that were 'killing' me, I know it would have helped a huge amount.
My pots and food are still better than what I've seen, and I think I'm hearing that we can buy xp pots?
I don't know about those.War....war never changes0 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭ShirleyShine wrote: »I'm probably missing something important here, but my two cents worth is that no matter what I could buy in the store I would still be rubbish if I did not put in the play time to make the most of my character and figure out the best way to use the skills.
That said, it is my first and only MMO so I guess I miss a lot of what is meant.
The only thing I've found in the crown store are the repair kits that fix all. I usually make a repair run to a town, but if I had had some of those at times during quests that were 'killing' me, I know it would have helped a huge amount.
My pots and food are still better than what I've seen, and I think I'm hearing that we can buy xp pots?
I don't know about those.
When comparing a game element it is best to use a hypothetical world of 2 people who are exactly the same skill, same time in the game, with the exact same accounts vsing each other. If one of those had a exp potion and the other didnt then one WOULD progress faster.
Thats the reason it is considered pay to win.
Some people try to fight with stupid logic like outside resources count but thats not how you calculate it.3 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭Spottswoode wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
A last generation computer and internet connection are external things that directly affect the speed of information management video game which decides who hits and who does not.
The speed of data transfer and graphics processing affects everything related to the ingame.
Not only affects ingame things, affects the whole game completely.
Money invested in the store is something external, which can affect something within the game.
I see no difference, even I see much more advantageous to having better equipment.
In your opinion, who has more money to spend on the computer and the connection, is clearly paying to win and it's something you'll never be able to handle.
People being able to buy better equipment irl is irrelevant to this equation. ZOS deliberately selling advantages is the crux of the discussion.
The advantages ZOS sold are for everyone.
Do not want to pay?
Ok, have no benefits.
What is the concept?
They want an entire company dedicated to the development and maintenance of a product and everything is free?
This is private, not public.
Create, maintain and develop it has a cost and must generate profits.
They are given the opportunity to participate with no monthly cost and above have the luxury of putting conditions?
In the world of private luxury services, the more it pays better benefits are obtained.
If ZOS decide that your product has to have optional payments that benefit those who acquire it is more than ok.
They have a business which is aimed at generating profits and anything that can incorporate to the game is an imbalance because the balance does not exist.
They are not breaking any fragile balance of fair competition as it does not exist.
In an MMORPG the P2W exists in many respects outside the company and that this (which is a business) decides to incorporate others, it's more of the same.
You can not break a balance that never existed.
You want to be the best of a payment service, paid.
I would imagine all those who are against payment in their jobs, working for free.
O addressing their business and delivering their merchandise for free and customers also dare to question them and criticize them.
Everyone wants everything for free, fast and efficient and also want to decide how to do and what is right and what is wrong.
I wonder if they are consistent with that mindset and let others be well with you.
I do not think so.
2 -
Eliteseraph✭✭✭Boosts which save time are NOT P2W, despite what some might have you believe. The only time that P2W actually applies is when someone can spend money to get power, items, or skills that aren't otherwise available through normal play, and are objectively better than what's available without paying.
Nothing I've seen in the crown store falls into the category of P2W. Gaining exp more quickly doesn't count. Getting a horse early doesn't count.
I suppose an argument could be made for any class/any race, or imperial being P2W, but it would be a very weak one.
Really, anyone that complains about the current options in the crown store are just being petty.
As long as the crown store only sells time-saving or cosmetic items we're fine. As long as zenimax doesn't skew the exp rate to artificially encourage buying boosts we're fine.
The DLC content and how that's handled remains to be seen, however. But at the moment ESO is most definitely not P2W."What a sad world we live in, where politeness is mistaken for weakness." - Usagi Yojimbo2 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭Spottswoode wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
A last generation computer and internet connection are external things that directly affect the speed of information management video game which decides who hits and who does not.
The speed of data transfer and graphics processing affects everything related to the ingame.
Not only affects ingame things, affects the whole game completely.
Money invested in the store is something external, which can affect something within the game.
I see no difference, even I see much more advantageous to having better equipment.
In your opinion, who has more money to spend on the computer and the connection, is clearly paying to win and it's something you'll never be able to handle.
People being able to buy better equipment irl is irrelevant to this equation. ZOS deliberately selling advantages is the crux of the discussion.
The advantages ZOS sold are for everyone.
Do not want to pay?
Ok, have no benefits.
What is the concept?
They want an entire company dedicated to the development and maintenance of a product and everything is free?
This is private, not public.
Create, maintain and develop it has a cost and must generate profits.
They are given the opportunity to participate with no monthly cost and above have the luxury of putting conditions?
In the world of private luxury services, the more it pays better benefits are obtained.
If ZOS decide that your product has to have optional payments that benefit those who acquire it is more than ok.
They have a business which is aimed at generating profits and anything that can incorporate to the game is an imbalance because the balance does not exist.
They are not breaking any fragile balance of fair competition as it does not exist.
In an MMORPG the P2W exists in many respects outside the company and that this (which is a business) decides to incorporate others, it's more of the same.
You can not break a balance that never existed.
You want to be the best of a payment service, paid.
I would imagine all those who are against payment in their jobs, working for free.
O addressing their business and delivering their merchandise for free and customers also dare to question them and criticize them.
Everyone wants everything for free, fast and efficient and also want to decide how to do and what is right and what is wrong.
I wonder if they are consistent with that mindset and let others be well with you.
I do not think so.
If you want people to read what you write then dont use the formatting you are using, most people will give up reading it just like I did.Eliteseraph wrote: »Boosts which save time are NOT P2W, despite what some might have you believe. The only time that P2W actually applies is when someone can spend money to get power, items, or skills that aren't otherwise available through normal play, and are objectively better than what's available without paying.
Nothing I've seen in the crown store falls into the category of P2W. Gaining exp more quickly doesn't count. Getting a horse early doesn't count.
I suppose an argument could be made for any class/any race, or imperial being P2W, but it would be a very weak one.
Really, anyone that complains about the current options in the crown store are just being petty.
As long as the crown store only sells time-saving or cosmetic items we're fine. As long as zenimax doesn't skew the exp rate to artificially encourage buying boosts we're fine.
The DLC content and how that's handled remains to be seen, however. But at the moment ESO is most definitely not P2W.
So someone does not gain power by having more cp then someone else due to the money they pay?3 -
Raash✭✭✭✭Why not just agree on that there is nothing like good player skill when playing these kinds of mmo's - its all numbers. A 5 will beat a 4. Play more and the numbers increases. That how it is.
I hope next generation mmo's will ditch this approach and have no character levels or stats on gear and instead focus on cool looks, housing and fair combat based on locational damage.1 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
A last generation computer and internet connection are external things that directly affect the speed of information management video game which decides who hits and who does not.
The speed of data transfer and graphics processing affects everything related to the ingame.
Not only affects ingame things, affects the whole game completely.
Money invested in the store is something external, which can affect something within the game.
I see no difference, even I see much more advantageous to having better equipment.
In your opinion, who has more money to spend on the computer and the connection, is clearly paying to win and it's something you'll never be able to handle.
You are relating this so badly its funny...
P2w is a in game element to a game. When you talk about pay to win it should be taken as a element of the game. So why are you bringing in other elements from the real world?
The reason "time" is not seen as pay to win is because it is a external source that helps a player be better. Just like "paying for training" and "paying for a better computer" is a external resource that isnt a in game element and thus should be treated as a outside source. LOGICALLY.
The reason people are thinking that exp potions are p2w is because it is a in game element that can progress others faster then others.
You are comparing apples and oranges like you are some smart lawyer when in fact you are blindly trying to put two and two together to make a case when they don't relate.
YOUR EXAMPLE
"Something something blah blah someone with better ping is better etc"
If in the crown store you could buy better connection which would allow the server to connect you better then yes that would be pay to win as its a internal element of the game. However as the connection is external and not governed by the game it is not p2w.
That you not like reality does not detract truthfulness.
You're recognizing that external factors can affect the balance and fairness.
If these factors exist and is more than obvious that they are not given the conditions of equity to measure skills among players, why the company will not be able to incorporate advantages for money?
Their product, their rules.
The main complaint of P2W is because it goes against fair competition.
Lie.
Fair competition never existed.
Is being changed by another influential factor.
What is the truth, many users want to cancel the differences that can generate the company to take advantage of that can generate on their own and are upset for that this type of aggregates that can alter his plans.
Sorry, if anyone has the right to tip the balance is the developer of the product and taking into account (by factors outside the company) that equity never existed and also given the opportunity to participate without monthly costs, nobody has the right to complain about anything.
What do defend those who are against the P2W?
Equity?
Fair play?
Equal Opportunities?
Let me tell you a secret ....
Never existed and never will exist in a MMORPG.
1 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
A last generation computer and internet connection are external things that directly affect the speed of information management video game which decides who hits and who does not.
The speed of data transfer and graphics processing affects everything related to the ingame.
Not only affects ingame things, affects the whole game completely.
Money invested in the store is something external, which can affect something within the game.
I see no difference, even I see much more advantageous to having better equipment.
In your opinion, who has more money to spend on the computer and the connection, is clearly paying to win and it's something you'll never be able to handle.
You are relating this so badly its funny...
P2w is a in game element to a game. When you talk about pay to win it should be taken as a element of the game. So why are you bringing in other elements from the real world?
The reason "time" is not seen as pay to win is because it is a external source that helps a player be better. Just like "paying for training" and "paying for a better computer" is a external resource that isnt a in game element and thus should be treated as a outside source. LOGICALLY.
The reason people are thinking that exp potions are p2w is because it is a in game element that can progress others faster then others.
You are comparing apples and oranges like you are some smart lawyer when in fact you are blindly trying to put two and two together to make a case when they don't relate.
YOUR EXAMPLE
"Something something blah blah someone with better ping is better etc"
If in the crown store you could buy better connection which would allow the server to connect you better then yes that would be pay to win as its a internal element of the game. However as the connection is external and not governed by the game it is not p2w.
That you not like reality does not detract truthfulness.
You're recognizing that external factors can affect the balance and fairness.
If these factors exist and is more than obvious that they are not given the conditions of equity to measure skills among players, why the company will not be able to incorporate advantages for money?
Their product, their rules.
The main complaint of P2W is because it goes against fair competition.
Lie.
Fair competition never existed.
Is being changed by another influential factor.
What is the truth, many users want to cancel the differences that can generate the company to take advantage of that can generate on their own and are upset for that this type of aggregates that can alter his plans.
Sorry, if anyone has the right to tip the balance is the developer of the product and taking into account (by factors outside the company) that equity never existed and also given the opportunity to participate without monthly costs, nobody has the right to complain about anything.
What do defend those who are against the P2W?
Equity?
Fair play?
Equal Opportunities?
Let me tell you a secret ....
Never existed and never will exist in a MMORPG.
Im
not
going
to
read
your
reply
because
when
you
write
a
sentence
then
make
a
huge
gap
it
is
really
hard
to
read.
The fact you think external factors are the same as in game elements which any logical person would not think makes me think that talking would be pointless anyways.
Edited by Hortator Mopa on 23 March 2015 06:015 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭Ok so I tried to read your response and it didn't make much sense in terms of sentence structure or logic. You keep relating external factors to a in game element...
So there is no point talking about a game principle with you.. .4 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »Spottswoode wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
A last generation computer and internet connection are external things that directly affect the speed of information management video game which decides who hits and who does not.
The speed of data transfer and graphics processing affects everything related to the ingame.
Not only affects ingame things, affects the whole game completely.
Money invested in the store is something external, which can affect something within the game.
I see no difference, even I see much more advantageous to having better equipment.
In your opinion, who has more money to spend on the computer and the connection, is clearly paying to win and it's something you'll never be able to handle.
People being able to buy better equipment irl is irrelevant to this equation. ZOS deliberately selling advantages is the crux of the discussion.
The advantages ZOS sold are for everyone.
Do not want to pay?
Ok, have no benefits.
What is the concept?
They want an entire company dedicated to the development and maintenance of a product and everything is free?
This is private, not public.
Create, maintain and develop it has a cost and must generate profits.
They are given the opportunity to participate with no monthly cost and above have the luxury of putting conditions?
In the world of private luxury services, the more it pays better benefits are obtained.
If ZOS decide that your product has to have optional payments that benefit those who acquire it is more than ok.
They have a business which is aimed at generating profits and anything that can incorporate to the game is an imbalance because the balance does not exist.
They are not breaking any fragile balance of fair competition as it does not exist.
In an MMORPG the P2W exists in many respects outside the company and that this (which is a business) decides to incorporate others, it's more of the same.
You can not break a balance that never existed.
You want to be the best of a payment service, paid.
I would imagine all those who are against payment in their jobs, working for free.
O addressing their business and delivering their merchandise for free and customers also dare to question them and criticize them.
Everyone wants everything for free, fast and efficient and also want to decide how to do and what is right and what is wrong.
I wonder if they are consistent with that mindset and let others be well with you.
I do not think so.
If you want people to read what you write then dont use the formatting you are using, most people will give up reading it just like I did.Eliteseraph wrote: »Boosts which save time are NOT P2W, despite what some might have you believe. The only time that P2W actually applies is when someone can spend money to get power, items, or skills that aren't otherwise available through normal play, and are objectively better than what's available without paying.
Nothing I've seen in the crown store falls into the category of P2W. Gaining exp more quickly doesn't count. Getting a horse early doesn't count.
I suppose an argument could be made for any class/any race, or imperial being P2W, but it would be a very weak one.
Really, anyone that complains about the current options in the crown store are just being petty.
As long as the crown store only sells time-saving or cosmetic items we're fine. As long as zenimax doesn't skew the exp rate to artificially encourage buying boosts we're fine.
The DLC content and how that's handled remains to be seen, however. But at the moment ESO is most definitely not P2W.
So someone does not gain power by having more cp then someone else due to the money they pay?
The problem with my writing is that I do not speak English, I speak Spanish.
I make a great effort to participate and make myself understood.
Regarding your question, if the purchase of CP is available for money, then, is available to all users who want to be competitive in a service that is private and is based on the billing and revenue generation.
Did not pay for?
Okay, you can also play and have fun with others.
Play cooperatively do not fun, because your only satisfaction is to be the best?
Okay, pay.
You want the whole package, free.
A company with hundreds of employees dedicated to deliver a product that requires no monthly maintenance and upgrade cost for you to be the best and no one can take advantage of you.3
This discussion has been closed.